Is it cheaper to live in Spain?

Although I said that slightly  tongue in cheek, unfortunately there are some communities that are so messed up, that it's best to consider worst case scenarios and make sure you check out a community as thoroughly as possible before committing to buying. Even in communities where everything runs smoothly fees can vary a great deal. We currently pay about 3 times as much as Bobaol mentioned, because we are a small community but have to fund a lift, pool and garden maintenance between very few owners. But ours as you know is a perfect community with a perfect president!

I know of a local community (where I used to own a property but thankfully no longer do) where some larger apartments are paying 300 euros a month or more. This is a very large complex (500 units or so) with 2 large pools and very well kept extensive gardens. The community fee used to also include central air con/heating, but the cooling towers were shut down 3 years ago due to a risk of Legionnaires disease, and have never been re-instated. Presumably a big cost saving - but the fees went up, not down. The pools used to open from April to October. Last year, only one was open this long, the other only for a couple of months in the summer, in order to save on lifeguard wages and maintenance. There is a 24 hour concierge service - but recently whenever I've been there, there's no one in the office, due to staff cut backs. The buildings are over 40 years old now, and need new wiring, plumbing and repairs to the facades. There's no money available for this work, and extra fees are having to be collected. We're talking several thousands per property.

In a community this size, there will always be some bad payers. And when those outstanding monies mount up, services will suffer, unless fees go up, so that those that do pay, effectively are subsidising those who don't. (Of course legal action can be taken against the bad debtors, but this can be lengthy process). This creates resentment, and previously good payers decide not to pay, as a sign of protest. The problem gets worse. The property gets into disrepair, the costs to maintain it mount up, fees have to go up, more people complain about rising fees and reduced services, bla bla bla.

All this is compounded by the fact that such a large community, which employs it's own dedicated administrator and a whole host of maintenance staff, is prone to corruption and wastage. Jobs are contracted out to relatives or friends of the president, who presumably is then "taken care of" (even the administrator employed his niece as a secretary, although no one ever saw her in the office!) and all sorts of fingers are in all sorts of pies. A sort of microcosm of a Spanish town hall, if you like!

Community meetings were held in a local hotel (since been stopped due to the unnecessary expense of paying the hotelier who was no doubt a mate of the administrator etc.) and went on all day, usually culminating in fisticuffs and flying furniture. Of course, the corrupt president was ousted out, but the new guy was put under so much pressure (hate campaigns by friends of the former president) that he finally quit, and since nobody else dared take the job on, the old one was re-instated.

OK, so this is a pretty extreme case, but it's real, and I tell it only to warn people about the possible problems in a community. If you are planning on buying in an established community, try to find out who the administrator is (or ask your lawyer to) and get a copy of the last AGM minutes, and just generally try to check out how the overall situation is. The seller of a property is only obliged to prove that he has paid all his dues up to date. He doesn't have to tell you that there's a big bill coming up for installing new lifts, repainting the building etc etc.

I'm off to look for a Happy Thread now!

 

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Crikey Roberto, I'm glad I live where I do and not there!!

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It's actually a very popular complex (or used to be) in a great location, and apartments there used to go for a premium. I'm just glad I sold when I did, because many owners would like to get out now. But even without the current economic problems, you'd have to be blind deaf and dumb (or on an inspection trip with one of those nice UK agents) to buy there at the moment.

The current president, who replaced the corrupt old b*stard, is a friend of mine. I see him every few days, but each time he seems to have aged about another year or two. He has an uphill struggle to sort out the mess, but what is needed most, and quickly, is money and lots of it.

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The question on the cost of living in Spain needs a bit of an update.
I noticed on my last trip that many items have increased in Spain but not as much as UK.  For example, we popped into our local Co-op and found a loaf of Hovis now at £1.45.  Ended up buying their cheapo white loaf but even that was 65p.  Bread in Spain (the good stuff) varies from about 42 cents up to 2 euros but you need to check.  Our favourite, Pan Rustica, at 75 cents (up from 60 cents just a month ago).
Petrol in both countries seem to go up every day but still a lot cheaper in Spain at around 88p to 92p a litre. 
What has, of course, changed is the convergence of the pound and the euro.  1.60 to the pound 6 years ago has now come down (this is the rate I got on my bank card) to 1.23 which makes a substantial difference.  Fruit and veg in the supermarkets in Spain were, I thought, just as expensive in Spain as UK until I just popped into Sainsburys and realised that prices in Spain are a lot cheaper.  Fruit and veg on the markets are cheaper in both countries but I thought 1.50 euro a kilo for new (Majorcan) potatoes in Spain were expensive until I noticed the same potatoes on offer today in UK at £1.99 a kilo.
What is expensive in Spain are things you don't buy on a regular basis.  Furniture, kitchen accessories, bathroom fittings, curtain rods etc are all very expensive in Spain.  Even patio and outdoor furniture can be prohibitively expensive in Spain (we have decided to buy our living room suite in UK and ship it over with our other stuff - apart from the much greater choice in UK the cost including the shipping charge will be cheaper).
Of course, a lot of this is balanced by the amount of charges in Spain.  Community fees, wealth tax (to be abolished next year), SUMA charges etc all add up to less than half what I am paying in UK for council tax alone which is a big saving.
Electric and water bills have shot up in Spain but nowhere near the increases I have had in UK.  My water bill (not metered, bog standard rates) have gone up 35% since last year.  I am paying about the same for the standing charge for electricity in UK as I am for the standard charge and the cost of electricity in Spain. 
ADSL charges in Spain are more expensive by about £5 in Spain now that the pound/euro are getting closer.  (Yes, you can get cheap deals in UK but not in my area where I am stuck with BT only for Broadband).
On the food side (again) baked beans (the local variety) are well overpriced compared with UK at 78cents a can (We only paid 2 cents more for Heinz) and pasta prices are double that in UK if you take into account things like Tesco value range. 
Spirits, whilst still cheap in Spain, are rising in price as are cigarettes (for those of us still addicted to the horrible weed).  Thank goodness you can still get a good (well, decent) bottle of wine for less than a euro in Spain.  Beer is still cheaper in Spain (except for things like ASDA own brand lager at 3% alcohol).  A litre of good, branded beer in Spain is around a euro compared with one pound fifty in UK.  Even a 4 pack of Guinness in the Mercadona was cheaper than the same in UK (€4.60 compared with £4.60 in UK )
Cheeses look expensive in Spain but, compared to UK, are very reasonable.  Local cheeses are very good value so avoid paying the earth for imported Cheddar etc, although we did find an English cheese stall on our local market where the prices compare with UK.  However, it is always a pleasure to find something new.  We bought a Queso de Cabra which we found to taste very much like Caerphilly but less crumbly and a bit creamier at a third less than Caerphilly in UK.  Parmesan is also about half the UK price.
Meat and chicken in Spain is rising rapidly.  You can buy a whole chicken in UK for the price of a couple of legs in Spain (€3.12 for two legs in Spain compared with £2.50 in UK for a whole chicken(Tesco)). 
Dairy products. Milk and eggs have risen in price in Spain but nowhere near the rises in UK.  Butter is about 1/3 cheaper in Spain.  Of course, olive oil is much cheaper in Spain than UK.
Cold and processed meats in Spain, especially ham (York and Iberica) are far cheaper than UK and the choice is very extensive.
So, all in all, unless you're trying to furnish a new house (which we have just done) I would say that prices in Spain are still around 20 to 30 percent cheaper than in UK provided you don't stick to the "international" sections of the local supermarket. 
Eating out in Spain is still much cheaper even though the euro has increased so much in value.  For example, very nice restaurant near me had a fixed price evening menu consisting of:
Starters, choice of -  Prawn cocktail, tomato soup with cream, garlic mushrooms, green beans with ham and garlic or garden salad
Main course, choice of - Spaghetti Bolognaise, Pork chops with chips and vegetables, Roast chicken, Breast of chicken, Mushroom and ham tortilla or pork fillet
Dessert, choice of - Ice cream, Chocolate Brownie with chocolate sauce, Lemon sorbet pudding or Raspberry pancakes
Small beer or glass of wine and coffee included.
Price was €15 per person.
Chinese restaurant meal for two (2 starters each, 2 main course each, rice and noodles, ice cream, 1/2 carafe of wine with coffee) for €19 (not each).

Edited to add: My 7 year old Vauxhall Zafira cost me £185 in road tax last August.  This is going up to £210 in August this year with the possibility of further rises due to the fact that the government has increased the charges retrospectively and, if you bought a car after March 2006, you could pay £400 for the same car. 

This message was last edited by bobaol on 5/18/2008.

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Nice one, Bob, I'm sure many people will find this post very informative and interesting, detailed as it is. Just wish someone at EOS would do something about the width of this thread so I don't have to keep moving the page left and right to read it!

So, chicken it is, for breakfast lunch and dinner, next time I'm in Blighty! As for all the other food items, you've clearly done your research (you must keep a notebook and pencil in your breast pocket every time you go shopping?!) I'd just add that it can make quite a difference where you choose to shop. It's definitely best to stick to the large chain supermarkets like Mercadona and Supersol, but even these can vary their prices and product lines from store to store. For example, we have two Supersols. The one nearest the tourist accommodations carries many foreign products and brands, and unsurprisingly tends to be dearer. Baked beans are not something I'm aware the Spanish have, so even if it's a "local" variety, it's likely to be imported, or inflated, for the foreigners. However, beans are something the Spanish "do" rather well, in a whole myriad of varieties, so the message is very much when in Rome...Pasta I always think is dirt cheap (one of the reasons I object to eating in Italian restaurants, or Italy for that matter, and paying more than a couple of euros for a meal which cost cents) but you didn't actually price it for us. I only buy supermarket own brands (it all comes from the same tree, you know) and a 500g bag normally costs about 49 cents. Pan rustica (if you mean a baguette?) is 53 cents in our local Mercadona. Opencor charges 85 cents for the same thing. Everything is dearer there, because they are a "convenience" store a lá 7-11. Very convenient in our case, as they are just downstairs in our building and bake all day from 7.30 am to 2 am - so they've got me! This month they have a special offer - buy a coupon for €3 to get your next 15 sticks at 50%. That's right, still dearer than Mercadona, but what are you going to do when you wake up and smell fresh bread? Walk down to the other end of town to save 30 cents? There should probably be a law against this, or a reclassification of bread to Class A......

Your set meals were for evening dining, which is usually a little dearer than daytime, but it's worth adding that a menu del dia, Spanish or Chinese, much as the ones you described, at lunch time, can be had (around here at least) for as little as €5 or €6 per person. Excellent value in any currency, I think.

Car tax for my 2 litre diesel this year €80 - same as the last 5 years! The Spanish chancellor must be having a nap! Spanish driving licences have to be renewed every 10 years (5 years if over 45, every year after 70). Just done mine, cost including mandatory medical check & photos, €54. More than compensated for by the lower road tax. MoT only needed every 2 years, on cars older than 4 years, so another saving there.

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Really would like to read this thread BUT cannot cope with the w        i           d              e screen thingy.

Justin can you sort it please ??????????????? 

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Re the w - i - d - e problem, I cannot see anything to make it like that, Karen. Usually it's because members post pictures that haven't been set to the web size.

EDITED TO SAY: it's ok now !

This message was last edited by morerosado on 5/18/2008.

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Tesco spaghetti = 18p
Carrefour own brand = 95 cents

Tesco Tagliatelli = 49p
Mercadona (Bosque Verde own brand) €2.00

Tesco Lasagna strips - 47p
Mercadona (couldn't find own brand) €1.45

HOWEVER:
Tesco Valencia white wine-£3.09
Mercadona Valencia white wine - 94 cents

Pan Rustica in Mercadona and Carrefour (not the baguette but the long rectangular one) is 75 cents, try buying the similar loaf in Tesco and it's £1.45
Even worse, large Ciabatta loaf in Mercado was €1.40 and Tesco is £1.40 for a small ciabatta.

My favourite - 1 litre Glayva Bodega Torrevieja €12.50 - 1 litre Glayva Tesco £32.00
Suppose you gotta get your priorities right.

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Gosh Bob, that notebook must be chokka - do you keep train numbers in it too?

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Nope, just reading many threads and I did ask for someone in Spain to make a list of prices and I'd compare them with UK.  Got no takers so decided to do it myself.
And after just buying a new house and taking it over last week, the cost of things in Spain for household goods seemed a bit extortionate.  We now have a house with kitchen white goods, a fitted bathroom with shower screens etc but sitting on two beach chairs with a plastic table and a blow up bed in the main bedroom
I got to the stage where I felt like opening the door and just throwing the money out to anyone who wanted it.
1st, bank said extras I'd ordered in the house couldn't be included and I owed them €5,100.
Next, grills fitted on doors and windows - €2,480
White goods for kitchen (fridge/freezer, dishwasher, oven/hob, dishwasher, toaster) €2,000
Bath screen, shower screen, vanity unit, mirror and stuff for sticking towels and loo rolls on - €1,678
House is looking fine, credit card and bank statements looking decidedly sick.
Now just have to put in furniture, get the back garden paved, get the front garden looking slightly decent and it's off to debtors prison for me.
Almost bashed the missus over the head with a shovel and buried her in the garden as a couple of thousand euros seemed to disappear every time we walked into a shop.
Five years to save it all, five minutes to spend it all.

If you see a poor, dishevelled figure sitting on the seafront at Torrevieja with a sign that says "Veterano de Las Malvinas, Pobrecito, Por Favor Ayudame" at least stick a euro or two in my cap.
Thanks in advance.

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I'll keep my eye open for you Bob.

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Congratulations on your completion, Bob.

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Well, congratulations Bob, I hope all your dreams are fulfilled (despite the cost!) Just do yourself a favour, and don't watch any programs called Housetrapped in the Sun. I just watched an hour of Amanda Lamb covering various sob stories, from Cyprus to France to, of course, Spain, and frankly, I'm feeling rather depressed. It's enough to drive any man to whack his missus over the head with a shovel!

I also get depressed watching a property show about people who buy at auction in the UK, fix up a property for about £300 and flog it on for a 6 figure profit. I get equally exasperated at estate agents who tell me that you can renovate, decorate and furnish an apartment here for €5000. Maybe home improvements and furnishings etc. are a lot cheaper in the UK. I know there are some who detest them (a certain auctioneer, perhaps?) but there was a thread a while ago about IKEA which concluded that their prices were pretty much the same UK and Spain. But otherwise, maybe you're doing the best thing bringing stuff for the house with you.

 

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• Electricity bills:

  • for five people, our bills are 120 euros per month unless we have guests
  • standing charge included in this is approx 20 euros

• Gas bills:

  • for at least five people with a gas hob and 2 boilers only 36 euros every 6 months!
  • Gas bottles are 12 euros each
• Radio Telephone & fast internet bills with private company:
• 48 euros per month plus the calls you make.
• 8 cents per minute to the UK cheaper than the leading company Telefonica although more expensive to initially have installed

• Food and Cleaning materials for five people approximately:  600 euros per month.

• A glass of beer or wine at a bar: is 1.50 euro.

• Tapas:

  • are between one and two euros each.

• Loaf of bread:

  • is between 90cents and 1.50euros depending on type

• Packet of bacon:

  • is 1.99 euros

• Bottle of Spanish lager:

  • is 59 cents

• Litre Bottle of Smirnoff Vodka:

  • is 11 euros, cheaper brands from arounf 5 to 7 euros
  • Cheap Brands of Vodka 4 euros

• Decent Bottle of wine:

  • 2-3 euros. although less if you buy from the local bodegas
• You could fill an average car full of petrol or Diesel for approximately 2/3 of the price in the UK a few weeks ago but actually this week it is not actually that much difference now!!!

• To Join a gym/Teakwondo for a month is 30 euros

  • 50 euros for 3 of us at the local gym with use of pool

• Meal of the day in a restaurant:

  • 7-12 euros
• Suma: council tax between 200 to 400 per year (ours is a thrid of that but thats another story)

Rental for say an apartment on a long term rental in this are can be between 100 to 150 euros per week but this depends on how close to the coast you want to be - the closer the more expensive.

This is just a small sample of prices the list is obviously endless

Also re Health...
If you are considering taking up residence in Spain there are many matters about which you must give the most serious consideration to. 

You will be moving into what is a very different culture than that which you have been accustomed to in the United Kingdom or for that matter any other country you may originate from.

Spain is still extremely bureaucratic in its approach to daily life and has not yet fully taken democracy on board. Not at least as you will know it in the U.K. or other more advanced countries

so..........................................................................

Considering re-locating to Spain you should

read this

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Oh dear Shar, I guessed you copied & pasted from your website & it didn't work very well.

Perhaps a link would've been better 

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Oops!

I had just updated that info and did copy and paste, was in so much of a rush on my way out didnt realize it had gone scew wiff!!

Never mind at least the info was there! but thanks for the link Morerosado!

The link worked for the other info so hope that has informed a few re Health etc...





This message was last edited by shar on 5/28/2008.

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Being new to Spanish living, we are just getting used to supermarket prices and checking around for the best places to shop. We have a local hypermarket that has a good range in products but is definitely geared for the tourist trade and is approx 15% more expensive than our nearest Consum or Mercadona but what I have noticed is that I seem to get more shopping for 50€  than I used to get for £50 at my local Tesco.

Certainly we are buying local brands and actually prefer some to the ones we used to get at home and the choice and quality of the fresh fruit & veg is far superior and the choice at the fresh fish counter - well, we just spend so much time trying to decide what to have this week.

I also find it a great way to learn Spanish so that I don't end up using fabric conditioner in my hair.

We've only been here a couple of weeks and I'm already finding myself helping out 'tourists' to find things, weigh things, price things etc.

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In May my sister joined me for a 10 day break, we put 70e each into a kitty purse and we ate really well.  We're not drinkers but we did get through a lot of Nordic Mist tonic water (50c a can)

She also insisted that I stock up on household items, toilet rolls, kitchen towels ect so that was also included in the total.

I came home went to my local lidl's to stock up our fridge (DH doesn't eat in when I'm not there), I spent £50 and got abought 2 meals out of that.

I think it's definately cheaper food wise in Spain, especially if you get your fruit and veg at the markets.  I'm always surprised at the difference in the prices, especially when in Tesco's and the veg has come from spain.

In the market I can get courgettes, aubergine, peppers for a euro.  Here I pay over a pound for each item.

That's why my hand luggage so heavy I always bring some veg home with me.

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So I'm not the only one who brings fruit and veg back to UK.  The flavours are just so much better, there is more choice - last month we came back with some fab skinny green peppers which OH puts on the BBQ or we fry (yum!) also some huge cloves of garlic (which goes in nearly everything I cook)
Not to mention the chorizo and iberico. Wish we could bring back the fish but it might whiff a bit...........

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When you stand at the carosels waiting for the luggage there are signs telling you what you're not allowed to bring in to the country and I'm sure Fish is one of them.

On the "airport" programmes they show people from carribean countries bringing in salt fish in their luggage, can't remember if it's confiscated when found.

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