can I chase the dream

The op needs to consult with a assesor to work out his exact position.

For a Spanish resident, rental income is treated totaly different from any other earned income,  - the allowances are really generous. Not only are you allowed to ofset all expences and even mortgage interest (if you have one) If you rent your property as a Residencial Family Home you get a 60% reduction

People should really check into things a bit more before posting misleading or incorrect information!!

Team GB. The OP said the income is in UK,  thus UK rules will apply. Unless of course the OP is required to pay some top-up tax in Spain in addition to the UK tax.   In that case I think he would need to take professional advice, don't you ?

My Statement stands.

We know if you have a UK property you must fill up a tax return in the UK.

You then include the same income on your Spanish return which is then treated as I explained below - 60% reduction for a spanish tax resident letting a residential home anywhere in the world!

TEAM,    Are you suggesting that the OP might then get a refund from AEAT ? 

From what he said, the net income after the tax in UK would probably be below the tax free allowance in Spain, so whilst a declaration would be required, possibly there would be no extra tax to pay.

John, I'm not suggesting anything just stating the facts on how rental income is treated when a Spanish tax resident lets out a residential home anywhere in the world. No, I don't beleive the hacienda gives refunds in this respect but the op may be quite pleasantly surprised with his outcome  AS I AM EVERY YEAR

Sorry if I am missing the point, but I would have thought that as the allowances are so generous in Spain, as you have explained, then the tax he will have already paid in UK may well be higher than it would have been, had the property been in Spain.  So why might he be 'pleasantly surprised' ?

 So why might he be 'pleasantly surprised' ?

Because the general school of thought and advice given (on this thread and others) seems to be that you pay 20% tax on rental income on any profit made over and above the Spanish personal allowance (5550€ for under 65's for 2015) less any tax you paid in the uk. This is clearly incorrect.

Example

Sole income from UK property (no other uk income - living in Spain) £10,000 no tax to pay in the uk because the personal allowance is £10,000.

On yout spanish tax return you would change this 10k to euros at the rate on the 31st Dec given by the hacienda - so for this example lets say that is 13,000€ 

The popular mis undertanding is that you would pay tax on the difference between 13,000 and the personal allowance 5550€ assuming this is the sole income. So the sums roughtly 20% tax on 7450€ =1490€ tax to pay

This is totaly incorrect and  is why the op could be pleasantly surprised as the actual liability based on the example above would be around 600€

Your point is a bit academic really, since in this example the OP will end up paying some tax, albeit only €600, that he wouldn't if he stayed "outside the system", i.e. remained (pretended to be) a UK tax resident. So although he may be pleasantly surprised that his tax liability is less than he may have expected, you can see how the "under the radar" camp will justify to him their stance!

The advice to consult an assesor (gestor) is good sound advice 

This posting seems difficult to fathom out to me possibly because as I own houses in Spain and do it all correctly via my Spanish solicitor / accountant, I cant understand how you can get away with so much, for so long, like you rent a house, is it this easy to find a bent landlord who will take cash in hand, who pays the outgoings? And in who's name are these in?

You cant buy a car without the nessary paperwork being done and somewhere your name crops up in this, can you tax it without your name on said paperwork? Same with insurance, who will sell you a car that way because the seller would get any fines surely.

Must be any amount of other things where by your name and ID has to be given over for various obtained items, bank accounts need names, so on and so on etc.

What gives with all of this? I have been around long enough to figure out many ways and means for a lot, but this, and in another country? 

I believe the OP wants to do things correctly, and posted here seeking advice and information accordingly. The majority of regular contributors, like yourself, have made the effort to inform themselves as best they can in order to do things correctly, and share their experiences here in the hope that this will help others to achieve their own dreams.

Since the OP mentioned that he already owns property in Spain, he obviously has an NIE and a Spanish bank account etc., has been paying non-resident tax on said property etc., and so is already in the system, and it would be foolhardy for him to now try and stay under the so-called radar if he retires to Spain on a fuill-time basis.

However, you must acknowledge that there are many "expats" here who do things, shall we say, differently? Possibly even some who have posted here! I don't personally see how it is helpful, let alone morally correct, to suggest to the OP that this is a viable alternative for him, but the fact remains that we all know some bloke (perhaps called Tony!) who crashes at another non-resident's property in exchange for doing some dodgy renovations, drives around in a UK reg. (SORN) car with no valid tax or MoT, whilst claiming UK benefits, perhaps housing benefit for a flat in London that he sub-lets for an (undeclared, untaxed) income to support his fraudulent corrupt lifestyle in Spain....you get my drift!

As I said stay under the Radar there,s ten times more stress if you register this and that ,trust me you will probably stay 6 mths and go back home 9 out of 10 do,even the so called experts on here are bickering over what is correct it makes me laugh when a question is asked by a one post wonder then all hell breaks loose 

As I say living the dream have done for 10 years like the Spanish say your dead along time live for today not worry what tomorrow brings any tax I should pay would be completely wasted by the corrupt Spanish system I could tell you a few stories over local goverment 

Of to the Pub now

Love Hughsie xx

As I said stay under the Radar there,s ten times more stress if you register this and that ,trust me you will probably stay 6 mths and go back home 9 out of 10 do,even the so called experts on here are bickering over what is correct it makes me laugh when a question is asked by a one post wonder then all hell breaks loose 

As I say living the dream have done for 10 years like the Spanish say your dead along time live for today not worry what tomorrow brings any tax I should pay would be completely wasted by the corrupt Spanish system I could tell you a few stories over local goverment 

Of to the Pub now

Have to admit it your posts do have a certain degree of smiles to them, especially the bit about a post from  "A one hit wonder " considering you were one of these at one time....Anyway.

I have houses in Spain, I have a car permanently in Spain for the use of family and friends who visit, I have all the necessary outgoings connected to all of this, I have business's here in the UK......I suffer not one or ten times more of stress, unlike the massive stress you have due to the telling, and bragging to others that you are doing everything illegally, wondering if the next time your out and about will the police ask to have a word with you, wondering what neighbour is looking sideways at you.

You have heard that if any UK national stays out of the UK for more then 1 month they now lose benefits, if it's not in yet it's coming soon.

So what stories can you tell of any corrupt government, Local, UK, Spain or anywhere for that matter that everyday folk don't know already about? We are all aware taxes get wasted, you don't own the sole rights on that one.

For someone that suffers no stress your sure trying to stress the point to posters that doing things illegally is the way ahead.

PS. I for one don't believe, not that it matters, that you are doing any of what you say.

I watched a BBC TV program this week about Brits cheating the system and so proud of themselves they were too.

One guy was doing a regular run to Belgium buying tobacco and selling it on in the UK. He goes to a small Belgium village just over the French border where there are about 1000 inhabitants, one baker, one butchers and 27 tobacconists! It seems in Belgium fags cost less than half the price of the UK and France.

Then there was a ticket tout who told us he made £140K from the rugby world cup buying and selling tickets to the crowd at matches.

The black economy thrives everywhere. However in France it is made very difficult by moral peer pressure and effective law enforcement. Many Brits have discovered that to their cost.

Living ‘under the radar’ is a natural instinct for people who feel burdened by the system and are personally selfish. However when things go wrong in their lives it’s the system they usually turn to first. Then not one consideration is given by them to the fact that the ‘system’ is paid for by other people. They simply take and take again. Ce’st la vie

The way I see it is that a "one hit wonder" has sparked quite an interesting discussion, and there's precious few these days here on EOS, so I'm happy to continue the thread. 

Hugh, I do believe - know that there are plenty of people like you (and our Tony down the pub) who do wing it for years with no apparent problems (although in my book having a car confiscated by the police and forking out nearly a grand in fines would count as a Problem). I am not criticising or judging at all, but for the sake of clarity (to satisfy my own curiosity), and for the benefit of the OP and others who may be thinking that yours is the way forward for them, am I correct in assuming that you do not own property in Spain; do not have an official rental contract; do not have a bank account in Spain; do not have any utility contracts in your name; use your EHIC if you need emergency medical treatment, and otherwise rely on private health cover; do not use a vehicle in Spain (other than rental cars); maintain an address in the UK for correspondence, bank accounts etc. etc. (anything else I've not thought of?)?

Your point about most people not lasting more than 6 months is actually a very good one, and I can see why one would want to give it a while before committing - registering as a resident, arranging your tax affairs etc., only to have to change everything back when it doesn't work out. But 10 years living as a tourist? Personally, I would feel very unsettled and never feel like here is my home, but I can kind of see how you might feel that you are less stressed by not getting involved in Spain and it's ways. 

Roberto you are one of the few I respect on this forum always courteous very knowlegable and balanced in your views RESPECT but I have said enough on this subject and wish to decline answering your questions I should not have disclosed my situation as it is morally wrong I know and has not helped the original poster 

I am an alcoholic and I drink and post some ridicoulous comments when I look back sober I do regret them 

I am sorry please forgive me I have decided to destroy my EOS account and you will neer hear from me again

Goodbye Hugh xx

I watched a BBC TV program this week about Brits cheating the system and so proud of themselves they were too.

One guy was doing a regular run to Belgium buying tobacco and selling it on in the UK. He goes to a small Belgium village just over the French border where there are about 1000 inhabitants, one baker, one butchers and 27 tobacconists! It seems in Belgium fags cost less than half the price of the UK and France.

Then there was a ticket tout who told us he made £140K from the rugby world cup buying and selling tickets to the crowd at matches.

The black economy thrives everywhere. However in France it is made very difficult by moral peer pressure and effective law enforcement. Many Brits have discovered that to their cost.

Living ‘under the radar’ is a natural instinct for people who feel burdened by the system and are personally selfish. However when things go wrong in their lives it’s the system they usually turn to first. Then not one consideration is given by them to the fact that the ‘system’ is paid for by other people. They simply take and take again. Ce’st la vie

I watched that as well, yes cigs are dirt cheap in Belgium, know a few who did it, I say did as they got caught  and lost more then the cigs, one even lost his house due to the "Proceeds of crime" act, also a bit like the poster on here bragging about the ways to, do it, lets go on TV and Bragg about how to do the ciggy run, mind you he could probably get away with saying they are for him the amount he chain smoked.

The ticket tout only showed one side of him but it's since been told the other side, he was made bankrupt, lost everything, mountains of debt still, debtors chasing him, told the authorities he lives with Mum, told the TV he rents a flat, seems this is not only his problems on going still, suppose he thought by wearing a hat and long coat he couldn't be recognised. Another one who thinks everyone is a mug so go on TV to prove it.

Just a thought!

If Robertos friend Tony and the hundreds like him ever decide to 'go legal'

The post 2012 regulations dictate quite strict requirements for residence.

Private Health care, own or rent a property (a proper contract in your name for rental) A job or financial means to support you and your family. How many Tony's could meet these requirements!!

Without residencia you cant get registered with a tax payers number, without residencia you are not surposed to be able to get empadronamiento (electoral roll) without empadronamiento you cant get a social security number or healthcare!.

So if Tony's and newcomers don't meet the criteria and continue to stay in Spain what are the authorities going to do? deport them? 

Well we all know many people who work under the radar, often it is done out of need (not an excuse) but often it is done out of greed, ignorance, stupidity, criminality and demand by those who seek a bargain or cheap goods / services despite the risks.

If we compare Spain to UK it is clear that the risks in working under the radar are far less in Spain as the police and due to the fact that so many do it openly and regularly the authorities simply do not see these crimes as a priority or they do not care (I wonder how much of it is down to the fact that they have friends / relatives doing the same……).

Yet they continually hassle genuine traders for licences, payments and motorists for driving in flip flops or having shopping on the back seat.

In Spain they do not accept or investigate help / tip offs from Joe Public without a million forms being filled in, depts. and regions clearly do not work together

Yet in UK the Police work with other depts. / regions and will act on / investigate support / tip offs from Joe Public

Maybe Hughie (and Tony down the pub) have got it right and the rest of us honest, risk averse, hardworking tax payers are the mugs

We might all be mugs Tadd but I can sleep at night and not s**t myself when there's a knock on the door.

There is a culture of weak law enforcement in Spain historically due to the Franco era when the Guardia Civil ruled with rod and gun. I am old enough to remember those times. Guardia stood on every road junction carrying Kalashnikovs. They used to sit in bars all day drinking free brandy waiting for informants to denounce someone. One of their best sources of information was from the local priest. Then a knock on the door in the night and you were lucky if you were seen again. Believe it or not if a woman walked down the street without arms and legs being covered they got arrested for indecency. I kid you not.

There was such a back lash against heavy policing after Franco that the culture had to change. Government funding for law enforcement dried up and it’s not really recovered. 

We seem to have gone of the thread again maybe we should start a ducking and diving thread, anway for what its worth  it doesn't take you long before you work it out that all the ducking and diving British that are over in Spain are a embarrassment to the fellow Brit and have not got a pot to take a piss in with all the ducking and diving , I have had a place in Spain for 9 year's and have lost count of the ducking and divers they tend to come over with their life saving £500 and then do anything to earn a euro last about 8 weeks and then go back to the UK broke straight back on the dole and a Council house  the only problem I have with this is I and many others have to sit and listen to all the bullshite from these people so the next time you see a guy sitting in the corner of a bar having a quiet drink don't bother him he has heard all the bullshite and doesn't want to be put off his beer with any more.