Solicitor

I certainly would NEVER suggest not using a lawyer, there is so much that can go wrong and many of the problems around Almeria  were where the completions were handled by the agent directly, not a lawyer

inspectahome - excellent advise spot on and I agree

sadly you will always find people who think they know better and are above everything - normally they end up getting burnt

Ads,

If I were you I wouldn't waste your breath with the Spanish Law Society - I cannot find my paperwork immediately, but I think my contact was with Consejo General de la Abogacía Española.

I contact them after a solicitor I used had failed miserably on two transactions and cost me many thousands of euros to be told, eventually on the third reminder, that they couldn't do any thing as she wasn't actually a registered solicitor.  But the message was so lethargic it gave no confidence whatsoever in continuing the matter.

In UK such a situation would not be tolerated, it would probably bring a criminal charge of fraud ending in a prison sentence.  In Spain their regulatory authority confines their role to their members and even that seems to be given a low profile.  But perhaps others have had a different experience?

ACER I don't understand there is a central register where you can immediately check if the company are actually lawyers and they have to display their registration numbers on the website

Individuals have to check because going back there were agents who used property conveyancers, not lawyers and even now some agents still try to get buyers to agree to use their services for the completion, why because it makes them more money

Surely if you engaged somebody you would have checked in advance their qualifications and if they were claiming in writing to be a solicitor then this would be a matter for the Police, even in Spain and also the UK Law Soceity will only deal with people that are registered members

Inspectahomespain observed "and there is actually a regulator in Spain for lawyers, the problem is that sometimes you are not dealing with a lawyer".....

Is the inference here that there is an EFFECTIVE regulator of lawyers in place or, as Acer has observed, might this inference be giving a false impression to purchasers since in reality there appears to be NO adequate regulatory control of " lawyers, conveyancers and agents" in Spain?

Isnt this a basic requirement and starting point to correct unethical practice in the Spanish real estate industry, and as such isn't this in the interests of all good real estate and legal professionals?

Inspectahome,

I'm no different to any other Brit.  I see Abogados on the door and I expect to find qualified lawyers inside.  I now know that sometimes the sign can mean that one out of a whole group of them is actually qualified.  Quite often that's not the owner of the practice either!

But that is just one aspect.  In my experience even qualified Spanish lawyers NEVER put anything in writing.  To me this is the first basic requirement of a professional, it avoids misunderstands, which is surely vital for any solicitor.

On one purchase I made in a block of flats the garage was not listed in the contract.  I had been shown the underground parking space, but only as I asked did I discover that it had been purposely omitted by the Spanish vendor.  My solicitor did not pick it up as there were no written details and he did not ask.  You have to be on your toes all the time and take nothing for granted.

I still don't fully understand the fact is that yes in Spain, as with the UK, you don't have to be a lawyer to act for the completion of a property and I have ALWAYS advised on this forum, over many years to use a lawyer, not the legal team of the agent or one of these companys offering low cost services for comveyancers

It you use a lawyer there is, similar to the the law society, protection and insurance

It isn't difficult to check, they have to display their bar number and of course you ask, in writing but people unfortunatly vote with their wallet

Also why do people use the agent to do the work, do your own due diligence ask are you a lawyer

In the case of the garage, prior even to contract, it would normally go onto the sales document because often underground parking, especially on new build properties, they charge extra

Normally the sales contract, that you have to sign and agree and is normally translated into English with a price

On the subject on the name on the door or practice it isn't only the individual that carries the responsibility but the trading name and details of the lawyer and the question that you need to be asking is not abount the person that does the work but the company that is registered with the law society

@inspectahomespain "I would also always suggest using a Spanish solicitor an one local to the property that you are buying so that they have local knowledge"

ha ha ha ha ha . I've been told the opposite, on the basis that the local lawyer will automatically be in cahoots if not related to all the local "stakeholders" and that it's best to choose one from the other end of Spain as he will be unlikely to know the seller, etc.

Isn't the point of this that even if they are a lawyer, and clients have been badly compromised by lack of due diligence to act at all times in the best interest of clients or through malpractice and/ or demonstrating conflict of interests during the conveyancing process, is it correct that lawyers can only be made accountable as a last resort mechanism, i.e after all other costly and lengthy legal attempts to regain monies or compensation from other parties have failed?

Are Bar Associations and the Law Society in Spain bound by any code of practice or rules of compliance to ensure their members act at all times in accordance with the code of ethics their members swore to " to faithfully comply with the ethical rules and obligations governing the profession of lawyer , as required by section 16 of the Spanish lawyers general statute"?

Inspectahome,

Re the underground parking place, yes the details should have been included in the sales document, but it wasn't.  The solicitor never asked for any details from the vendor or from me and wasn't in control of the transaction.  This would not happen under the UK system where the solicitor takes reasponsibility.

It seems to me that Spanish solicitors are generally more pleasant than their UK counterparts, but only do half the job.  Including they never confirm anything in writing - it's sloppy and unsurprising that problems result.

GuyT is right too - if you think your solicitor is acting for you you're often mistaken.  Many are more interested in maintaining their relationship with their compatriot, particularly when they're likely to do business with him in the future.   Rather different business ethics to what you might expect.

Inspector It you use a lawyer there is, similar to the the law society, protection and insurance
 

I have mentioned before that at one time I was the liaison officer at Scotland Yard with the Investigation  Branch (they investigate allegations against their members) of the English Law Society.    The Law Society of England was set up, is run and financed by Solicitors. From experience I know they do not always act in the interests of Joe Public as is commonly believed.

I would be very surprised if the Spanish equivalent, which I assume is also a 'club for lawyers'  is even as effective as the English Law Society.  I would think most of us who have been here any length of time know that in Spain, even in what would seem uncomplicated matters, different lawyers can give every different answers all of which can be wrong.

Without intending to be at all personal there are some on EOS that I put under the "everything in the garden is rosy" banner.  But you only have to listen to the massive problems encountered in the Spanish property market to realise that it's not.

If you focus on the obvious cases where conflict of interests has predominated, you can't help but conclude that this conflicts with the ethical principle to remain free from undue influence and to act at all times in the best interest of clients with all due regard to contractual law.

I have been involved in many debates on here which I have been and I continue to critise the actions of certain lawyers and agents, of course the system is far from perfect but also that it has improved and there are now far fewer horror stories, I now read very little on here or any other forums or reports on new cases, since the laws changed, the MASSIVE problems are not current or new problems, they are historic

The basic process for the buyers is seek independant advice and refferences and employ an independant lawyer, LAWYER not agent or conveyancer

I don't agree with comments about using local lawyers

On new properties now the process is everything with a Bank Guarntee, no BG no contract no sale, even last week I was advising a client who was about to pay 30% deposit for a new build without a BG and the agent was acting as the legal representative, wrong, wrong, wrong

On a resale , everything on the sales contract and deeds, all buildings, pool even a built BBQ

The facts remain that there are hundreds of completions, every week with no problems it is ONLY the problem cases that are reported and often the same people on here that have been treated very badly that post here

I am sorry but if a lawyer as claimed doesn't put everthing in writing then don't sign or contract till they do,  you are after all the customer and too many clients just don't complain or read and understand the terms

Also I always advise people to ask the question, do you carry out any legal business for developer ******, they have to answer and if the answer is yes don't use that lawyer

Not so I'm afraid, still ongoing contentious issues relating to adequate purchaser protection with regard to resale of Bank repossessed properties and  Banks not declaring their community debts on those properties, nor timely transference and updating of land registry details.

Also lack of transparency and inadequate forewarning by some legal representatives re property taxes relating to the difference between property values as opposed to sale price. Nasty after shock for some.

Nor sadly transparency re ongoing vulnerabilities relating to properties STILL being transmitted without correct licences in place, retrospective and outstanding issues relating to Coastal laws etc......

Again it is up to the agents to protect the buyers and make them aware of these issues for example there is always the option to obtain, from the administrators, a certificate of debt for community fees and the Town Hall for IBI

As far as the La Complementaria tax that we use always recomend that taking a pre-emptive approach, request from the Tax Authorities the book value of the property (valoración previa vinculante). This is the value a lawyer knows that if sold below will necessarily draw the attention of the Tax Office by way of extra taxes. It binds the Regional Tax Office on calculating Property Transfer Tax (ITP) on resales and may be attached to the Title Deed on completion in avoidance of ‘discrepancies’.

Often the notice is delivered to the Spanish address with a set period to appeal so we always get the lawyers registered as the address for such communications, giving time to appeal

Again not ALL lawyers are bad but it seems good sport to knock them all and all of this information is avaiable online

Inspectahome, I was reading your post and thinking to myself that it was very helpful - then you ruined it by the misplaced sting in the tail..not ALL lawyers are bad but it seems good sport to knock them all and all of this information is avaiable online.

No one has ever said that "ALL lawyers are bad"!  

Furthermore when you employ a solicitor, or any other professional, you don't expect to have to double check their work online!!!

My contention is that:
~ standards are generally a lot lower than UK
~ some solicitors have a different ethical outlook and favour their compatriots, even though you are their client
~ there is no pre-contract questionnaire by the vendor, so there is little information and caveat emptor applies
~ some imply that they are qualified solicitors but are not
~ very few confirm anything at all in writing

Also, the chances of successful recourse against a solicitor in Spain following an error or ommision are very modest due to the weak legal system and absence of consumer legislation - as I was told by a Spanish solicitor after I complained to her that she had cocked up on the case she was handling of mine. 

I've just sold a property in the UK, and the paper work I had to complete as the seller was unbelievable, I was sat there thinking what bit does the solicitor do apart from getting his PA to register it.And  if I had have told any porkies on these forms they would be suing me, but again none of this in Spain, it's a case of pays your money, takes your chance.

A lot of comments on this but very few actually help the OP