Court case delay

I'm adding this thread partly as a warning to others in this mess, and partly as a watchword against your lawyers performance and mainly because I am absolutely livid.  

My court case final hearing was scheduled this morning, I had a very brief e mail saying it's been cancelled because the bank hasn't provided information about the movement of money in their account.

So the reason I'm livid? 

The case goes through procedures which includes placing documents in the court for them to decide if there is a case to answer.  It also goes into a preliminary stage to check all documents and arguments are present.

After this the final hearing date is arranged for around 8 months later, making a total of over two years to get to this stage.  On the day of the final hearing, it then comes up that some information is missing, by the bank we are taking action against.

Is the information hard to obtain?   No it can't be, it's absolutely easy for a bank to provide information about where money goes in their accounts, otherwise they need to be shut down as a practicing bank anywY   

Who then is really at fault here, the bank?   Probably not because they are happy it's being delayed through their own activity.

The court? Probably to some extent because the documents checked as present, were not all present (it seems tho have taken the court about two minutes to decide these are missing)

My lawyers?  Probably because as experienced legal practitioners who have attended the preliminary hearing, overseen the documents for both parties and had time to request any missing information.

Who then suffers?   Well we do obviously.   

Does anybody care that these things happen?    I very much doubt it.

Has everyone in the process had money from us.   Yes everyone.   

What can we do about it?    Answers on here please, this is completely unacceptable.   

This message was last edited by briando55 on 06/02/2017.

I am thinking,  are these problems related to the Brits only when these problems arise, obversely the Spanish must buy house's and apartments and no doubt some must have problems also, it would be good to know if this is country wide, as in the Spanish population also, and not in the main seemingly confined to the English people.

I hope you get the correct and right outcome sooner rather then later.

Brain you are just a meal ticket that no one gives a toss about, made worse by you not being a Spanish National.

Hi potblack.  Yes it definitely looks that way, that's the way I feel about it also.

however, any practical advice about how a complaint may be made to look into any practices to see that people are working as they should do would be brilliant.    But it should be advice about how to do it from the UK and any overseeing body in the Spanish authorities because I don't have confidence in Spanish lawyers looking after my interests right now.  

Briando:

At preliminary hearing, lawyers propose to judge the evidences they consider necessary to be practised for the decission of the case. After that,lawyers have no power at all to influence the effectiveness or quickness of the obtention of evidences.

Maria,

If I can deal with your response in a step by step way, and reference this to the procedures given to me, the first question will be.

The lawyers promise to me concerning the stages of my case.

2) In-Court Proceeding - Declaratory procedure
We will start by asking developer/Bank through preliminary judicial steps with
the aid of the Judge to provide to us information on existence of Bank
Guarantees and accounts where money was held.
Once this information is provided we will draft the corresponding lawsuit
against the correct party.
 

This is part of the initial proceedings differs from what you are saying in your answer Maria, where you are saying you simply propose evidence.

The part where the lawyer has stated

We will start by asking developer/Bank through preliminary judicial steps with
the aid of the Judge to provide to us information on existence of Bank
Guarantees and accounts where money was held. 

This means the lawyer should ask for the information at the outset, evaluate the information and decide if there is anything missing.  After all, the missing information in my own case seems to be very basic information to gather and seek (if it turns out to be missing), it appears someone has not been doing their job at the outset.

For someone to look patiently forward to a final hearing for 8 months, and then find out some information is missing, which is both basic and is part of the lawyers own description of their terms, seems to be a lack of thoroughness, which is a rightful expectation of the lawyers practice.

I dont accept this can be blamed simply on the court system, if it was missing to start with, surely the lawyer has the duty to make sure this is put right immediately.  

What a completely ridiculous situation to be in, who on earth can you trust if lawyers and courts don't give a monkeys about you.

Briando,

Sorry to hear of the delays that you are experiencing.

I'm wondering if the following questions might be relevant to your case?

Did your lawyer request Banking evidence from the original conveyancing lawyer with whom you placed your deposit (which should have been placed into a client account prior to them forwarding the monies to the developer's account)?

Has the conveyancing lawyer refused or been obstructive in this production of vital evidence to identify the specific banking details of the developer account where your deposited monies were then forwarded by the conveyancing law firm? They must have known the developers Banking details in order to forward on the deposited monies.

So, following this logic through, if the conveyancing lawyer has been obstructive, I thought there was a process by which your lawyer can ask the judge and/or relevant Bar Association, to demand this Banking evidence from the conveyancing lawyer, which I thought was in advance of the preliminary hearing, such that your legal defence are armed with all necessary Banking evidence to proceed at point of preliminary hearing without further delay.

Perhaps Maria can clarify whether this is correct, or whether this demand for evidence can only be done by the judge at preliminary hearing stage? Also have Bar Associations been of assistance in this process?

As an alternative, have you also personally tried to make contact with your conyeancing lawyer to request (in writing) that Banking evidence of where your monies were forwarded be provided to you, and have you been denied this detail in that process?

I wonder if your lawyer made an application to the judge to demand this evidence from your conveyancing lawyer well in advance of the preliminary hearing so as to minimise delay and if this in itself has been hampered by delays?

I understand Maria identifying " lawyers have no power at all to influence the effectiveness or quickness of the obtention of evidences. " but with great respect, I had hoped over the years that these instances where major delays were found to be compromising timely justice (and client's best interests) that these instances of major delays, where applicable, would be being brought to the attention of those responsible for monitoring the effectiveness of justice in Spain by all lawyers, so as to identify where under-resourcing impacts on such a scale as to challenge the rule of law (which makes mention of the requirement for sufficient resources to be made available, so as not to unduly impact the justice process).

These delays are becoming of growing concern in areas/regions where there is now already a major backlog of cases, and unless greater financial resource is made available to these regions most under pressure, my fear is that this will undoubtedly place clients at continuing risk where judicial rulings still require Supreme Court clarification (i.e. where jurisprudence has not been sufficiently established to enable a case to be fully upheld).

Surely this is in the interest of both lawyers and clients alike and to the reputation of Spain as a country willing and able to uphold the rule of law in terms of how it adequately resources and monitors its justice system.

Having said all of that, on a positive, the Supreme Court rulings are finally thankfully making the Banks more accountable but there is still a long way to go, given the Banks continuing unwillingness to settle out of court, preferring to prolong the judicial process in the hope that many will either not be able to afford the long fight for justice, or be unwilling to suffer the stress of lengthy litigation.

So long as these major delays are not adequately addressed, the Banks sadly are pinning their hopes on the fact that they can afford to wait, whereas to individuals the price of abusive delays can often result in a disincentive to seek rightful justice.

Good luck and I hope this helps a little! Delays and patience are inevitable but when such delays span beyond a decade and more, patience wears thin I'm afraid.

This message was last edited by ads on 06/02/2017.

Thank you Ads that's very useful,

In my own case I understand that information concerning the movement of money in the banks account was requested by the court, and that was at the preliminary hearing.  This was ordered to be in court for the final hearing today.

My lack of understanding (and tolerance I have to say) is because the bank (barristers) have not even been asked about the provision of this information from that day to this, and the barristers from both sides appear to have been able to go along without asking or answering any questions.  The court is the only one that seems to be able to ask any questions of each party, and they fail to ask the proper questions, resulting in the opposing party being able to glibly carry on knowing the court case will not go ahead.   The reason for this?   It seems the courts are too busy to ask simple questions, and then become even busier because the case has to be rescheduled.

So at this time, my lawyer can't tell me when or if the information will be given, when a court date will come about (because they are busy) and who is going to ask for the information to be provided when a new court date does come around.

 I have waited 8 months for a court date coming and looked forward to the case moving forward, the court and both barristers have wasted this opportunity because they do not talk to each other.  That is something I don't accept, I have tried to be patient but this is beyond any reason.

If I had details of how to contact the Bar Association you mention, I would be happy to seek their advice. 

Briando:

I can understand your frustration, but believe me, these situations are also very disruptive and annoying for us lawyers and in fact, cannot be  directly avoided or punished by us.

Delaying and/or obstructive tactics by the Bank will not favour them as interests will be growing.

Hello Maria. 

Believe me, frustration is for the people working in the cases, disbelief and devastation is a better description for the clients.  

I look at this pragmatically of course but I see the only people in the case who seem to matter are the people at the top, judges, barristers, lawyers.  

It should be obvious to all that people affected by these cases were largely investing in Spain from their forthcoming pensions or retirement plans.  When a case takes 10 years the people involved are becoming older, less well, more restricted by the loss of finances.  

It should be considered that there are many administrative people in the court system.  When a case doesn't take place on an allotted day it's causing problems in the system and making it busier and more stretched.  Courts have clerks, good people who check information when asked.     Lawyer firms or barristers have clerks also, administrative officers who can make phone calls, write letters, send e mails and faxes.  The day to day stuff.  It is simple to ask the court if information is provided in line with their orders before a case goes ahead.   

When a team are climbing a mountain they need all the people to work, if someone lets go of the rope half way up, they never reach the top.  It is never all about the top people, it's about everybody and working together.   

For instance, if people at the top turn up at the court and book hotels, take trains etc. And nothing can happen, I'm sure they want to blame everyone else.  The thing is they are just feeling the effects of the poor management and the simple tasks that have not been done.  

The banks?   They are loving it, all they have to do is nothing and hope people die off or go away before they have to pay. 

Interest?   Waiting for interest is a punishment to them?   I guess they will use interest as a means to appeal, w should be thinking ahead of that possibility and tackling it head on shouldn't we?  

I think it's called working smarter not harder when that's required

Everyone is worked up about this issue, the time it all takes and the delaying tactics of the Banks but to be a touch realistic the same happens in UK and waiting 8 months for a Court date and last minute delays are also not unusual!

The Spanish legal system is slow and over the last decade the UK system has speeded up

Perhaps now after the Supreme Court decsions the blame lies with the Government and the Bank of Spain who have not yet forced the Banks to settle quickly this Bank Guarantee issue in a similar way the have moved over the Suelo clause which is,I am told technically more legally complex than this issue which is relatively straight forward if you have the correct documentation

The Banks will have all made financial provisons for their liability and as one expects from Banks they are just mitigating their loss by using the system , as every bussines or individual does and unfortunately the customers are left to suffer

In a way buyers are lucky that they paid the deposit in Spain as if they had done the same in UK they would not have been so well protected!  

When a case is going to court the information is provided by both parties to determine the case.   Late evidence can be requested for submission but the initial request for information forms the basis of the case ( I'm talking about the uk but this is a basis for law in most parts of the developed world)  

it is common sense that a check of the initial information is made prior to the final hearing starting and I don't accept that a simple question isn't asked prior to this case date.   In my case I believe it was the only request made and easy to check.

when your buying property in the UK the solicitors pay between themselves when the conveyance and land registry procedure is completed.  We don't buy off plan over here because it's too risky. 

In Spain they say you will get a guarantee, when the company went bust my first lawyer said we don't have any option but to go through the administration procedure, we take the experts advice.

dont forget it was an Englishman who took the current law to court in his own case and won.   I beleive if it wasn't for him we would be fully ripped off, even with the law on our side.   With the case law in place, we are ripped off (twice now with the administration) and we are not prepared to be ripped off a third time, so anyone who doesn't work in my interests from here on, watch out!!!!

But thanks for your comments

Ronaldo seemed to get to court quickly, I wonder how long it takes for home to go through the system and for Spain to get its taxation money back.

A lot quicker than us mere mortals will get ours back I bet!!!!

brian, the last time , we noticed your emails you seemed to be happy with costa luz ?, whats occured since ?, 

ps, we have asked maria and keith rule many questions and have only had an answer to one, which made no sense, and by the by what ever happened to the "spanish justice thread" folks ???

No problems with costa Luz.  They won my case in June, it's the courts that I keep complaining about.

i don't know what question you asked them Stokey, so I can't comment on that.   Try asking again perhaps?

Stokey:

I do not want to break rules of this forum and  I do not think it is the place for stating those general accusations.

It is my responsibility to care for the well deserved good professional name of many hard- working and dedicated people at CostaLuz and DeCastro.

I can show here how " inaccurate" (to say the less) are your statements but again, it is not the place. What it is necessary for me to state, is that the behaviour you are taking can produce that (1) we stop legal representation and ( 2)  denounce it to the competent authorities, which we would not like. 

 It is the second time. First time I informed to you, this one I am warning you, next one... I will have no other resource than going ahead with both measures stated above.

Hope you will be able to consider this calmly,

Maria

Until more Govt funds are made available to target those areas suffering the worst delays ( that are now compromising the rule of law), the court administrators and judiciary let alone those seeking justice  are all being subjected to a growing spiral of workload and delays, with all the knock on effects that have now led to immense frustration, mistrust, disillusionment in the Spanish Justice system etc  ( as Maria has already identified Estepona for example is one of the slowest courts in the country).

It's a viscous circle that unless the Spanish Govt are willing, (or for that matter made to acknowledge the impact on the rule of law in Spain ) , then little will change.

So in the interim the question then becomes are lawfirms consistently reporting these major compromising instances of delays to the relevant authorities, to act as credible "evidence", are the administrators  and judiciary calling for extra resources?

In other words are those responsible for monitoring the justice system actually receiving adequate feedback upon which to act? Is this due to insufficient care of clients and insufficient desire to achieve an effective justice system to warrant such proactive approach,  or is there such little belief in the monitoring system in Spain to consider such efforts  a waste of time?

It makes you wonder how this will ever be resolved without a commitment to report, review and take action to adequately resource the Justice System in Spain given the growing instances of legitimate claims to gain justice,,..i.e   is it not time for all those within the justice system and the legal fraternity to work in a more coordinated and determined fashion to genuinely seek the necessary resources to effectively gain timely justice in Spain?

This message was last edited by ads on 01/08/2017.

Dear Ads:

Believe or not, Spain is trying to solve those problems and yes, we do report delays. We may need to start doing more frequently. I want to hope this will make a difference.