Murcia area -20 year rule for legalisation.

We have a villa in the region of Murcia.  We have had our property since September 2003 and like many others it is an illegal build.  We have heard that after 20 years it is possible to have your property legalised.  I have been trying to find out some information regarding this and wonder if anybody could help me please.

Regards

Hello Dorrogolf

Perhaps the best way forward would be to seek legal advice from a professional lawyer like Maria.

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Thank you very much for your reply, I will of course instruct a solicitor, I was just asking if the 20 year rule in Murcia was in fact true.

Thank you.

Thank you very much for your reply, I will of course instruct a solicitor, I was just asking if the 20 year rule in Murcia was in fact true.

Thank you.

I haven't heard of the 20 year rule...but I do know if its built on what's known as Rustic Land then your chances of getting it legally  recognised are pretty slim..I think the best way forward is to go and see a good lawyer .

Thank you very much for your message, it is much appreciated.

Hello Dorrogolf, interested by your post and it seems you're a generous fellow with your response. 

Over the years I've been actively involved on this topic, separately with two specialist lawyers on a community issue, but never, ever heard a "20 year rule being mentioned".  Well not as such, more of a "it's quietly swept under the carpet if it's politically expedient to do so".  

But the 17 Regions are theoretically completely autonomous and my research and experience was really limited to Murcia (where opinion seemed to also be divided!).

So I'm as sure as I can be that be that there is no law as such that applies in Murcia.  But Murcia has been regularly quoted as having a laid-back approach to property law - there are several large urbanisations where no habitation certificates have ever been issued.  Many "illegal" builds are allowed to continue, when public opinion indicates they should.  The local notaries seem to turn a blind eye to subsequent sales and purchasers of these properties, but..."this is Spain" where laws are often more flexible. 

Personally I wouldn't waste time and money in seeking a solicitor to tell me that.  But I'd be most grateful if you find a more meaningful answer to your question, if you decide to seek legal opinion. 

How can notaries turn a blind eye to illegal properties? What is the purpose of any Spanish law?

Thank you so much for your reply, I am very grateful that you took the time and trouble to let me know your views.  As you say, "this is Spain" and basically they do what they like.  The original promoter of the site (20 years ago) which included 24 villas has since sold them on/tranferred to someone else and he is actually selling them to people even though they have all been sold and paid for previously.  We have had two different lawyers over the years and achieved nothing apart from parting with a lot of money. Somebody mentioned about the 20 year rule in Murcia to me and it was really or last hope.

Thank you again for your time.

Hi Dorrogolf,

I'm sorry I cannot offer any help, but the one suggestion made earlier on here that I should have emphasised is that it might be worth trying is Maria at Costa Luz Lawyers - via the email mentioned: marialuisa@costaluzlawyers.es

Maria used to have a high profile on this forum and I believe has assisted a lot of folk.  It can be a long haul but they operate on a "no win, no fee" basis.  They are certainly good, genuine, qualified people - as you may know, there are others who are simply charlatans who want fees paid up front and then do nothing...

Good luck.

Thank you very much everybody, it is certinly worth a try.

Regards 

Foreigners carrying out financial activities in Spain need to be educated and be aware the standards of their home countries' consumer law does not apply or are enforced here. Spanish Lawyers, the Bar Association and the government treat noncompliance as normal.

How can a property be illegally built then illegally sold and purchased through Spanish lawyers acting and being paid for by their consumer clients?

Kavanagh, are you being a bit coy, or perhaps there's a different culture in your part of Spain?

In the southern part of Murcia there are masses of stories I could tell relating to property sales, some of which are simply fraudulent.  I've bought and sold many times in Spain so when I was told I had to complete a purchase without a Habitation Certificate on a newbuild I politely refused.  The builder/promoter then issued legal proceedings for breach of contract, which got nowhere , they were just trying to bully me.

Another guy, a prospective neighbour, discovered that the same builder/promoter had sold his house twice!  He like me had declined to complete the purchase w/o an HC being received.  This was all 15 years ago now, but the practices were outrageous and lots of properties were sold and then re-sold without any HC being provided.

Incidentally a few years later the builder/promoter mentioned went bust and was prosecuted for various counts of fraud etc - he was sentenced to a jail term, but never served any time as the term was less than the threshold applicable, so the sentence was "suspended" - so no days in clink, no fine and no redress as he put the firm into liquidation.  There are lots of laws in Spain, but it is a flexible system.  I think part of it is the 17 autonomous regions, but I'm guessing - never bothered to take it too seriously! 

IMO in many ways their system, particularly their pragmatic interpretation makes a lot more sense that the UK, who sometimes end up making daft decisions, because "it's the law".

There is no purpose in having laws unless they can be trusted and enforced. Ridiculous and outdated laws need to be scrapped.

Without enforced laws how does society know the difference between right and wrong? Perhaps in Spain, many don’t care about right and wrong, and that seems to include the legal profession.

Spain is great as a laid-back couldn’t care less country, but foreigners need to get streetwise quickly to corruption.

Mmmm...nice theory Kavanagh, but clearly that of an Englishman...there's also another perspectice - ..."when in Rome"...

Acer, I fully understand your point of view. Honesty and corruption are created by each person’s moral standards. We live in a world that is unlikely to be ever perfect. Generally the weak and poor will suffer most from corruption. In democratic societies, governments are elected to provide fairness to all, eliminate corruption and enforce laws to equally protect all. Sadly ‘greed’ in some people and societies eliminates moral standards towards their fellow human beings, that is the ‘when in Rome standard’ how low do you go ‘when in Nigeria or China’.

Thank you very much for your comments, very interesting.  Just as a background we previously had an apartment that we bought in Los Alto of plan so we do understand all the legal formalities and not compleely naive i.e. Habitation Certificate etc and things could not have worked out better.  Our apartment had winding stairs and we had the third floor and solarium so as we were getting older we thought a bungalow would be the best option so we sold the apartment.  The villa was advertised in an Estate Agents called Benneke and we were advised that their legal team had checked it out thoroughy and everything was ok.  The villas were partly built and we reserved one.  This was in the Murcia region, lovely and quiet.  We paid our money as outlined in our contract and of course have absolute proof of these pyment.  Such a long story but as the land was rustic, it should never have been built on.  Other residents who bought on the same site "La Montana" have either walked away or died and a new owner/promoter has advertised them with various agents and sold some on.  Every time we saw them advertised, we would call the agents and sometimes they would take them down.  I think our lawyers were definitey intimidated by the "new owners" and were not prepared to help us.  We cannot sell them as we do not own the land.  I could go on and on the the bottom line is, we have paid all our money and have nothinng in return.  I struggle with the unfairness of the sitution and how this can be allowed to happen.  There, I have got this off my chest - I always believe that what goes round, comes round, let hope so.  

Kavanagh,

For a specific reason I visited a good restaurant last night - La Siesta on Bol Nuevo beach, near Mazarron.  It's "illegal" - lacks planning permission - and for many years threatened with being pulled down by the local council.  But when they sent a bulldozer to do so the locals protested, big time, so thankfully it still exists.

It's a lovely place, excellent food and a bit special!  It wouldn't have survived in the UK, we are equally bureaucratic, but more inflexible, where sometimes the Spanish have a more pragmatic stance, which can make sense - well that's my opinion.

You bang on a bit about the "poor" and "greed" a lot!  Obviously the word "greed" has a negative connotation, but it's really a matter of semantics.  Politicians will select words to manipulate the thinking of their stooges.  The word "ambition" might often be an alternative word to replace "greed".  Is it still wrong to have "ambition"? 

Do sometimes the "poor" lack "ambition"?  Are some lazy and prefer the free hand-outs, rather than "work"?  Of course, others will be poor with good reason and should receive assistance in a civilised society.

But for me your comments seem almost a trifle politically motivated and perhaps misplaced in the real world, where ambition must be encouraged.

Acer I agree, ambition is fine and should be encouraged, but illegal greed (gluttony, voracity, ravenousness and materialism) in most people’s opinion has no place in a civilised society. I do understand that those committing illegal greed may have a different view.

Dorrogolf - you mention "rustic land" - this is where a large proportion of the problems/scams look place.  It sounds like your solicitors were lightweight, but there is no real value in sympathy from the folk on EOS - I reckon you should act upon the advice offered and contact  marialuisa@costaluzlawyers.es  immediately.