Can I afford to live in Spain - Serious question

Hi Robert,

Yes, do have a British passport, so we are OK there. Durban is quite different. Improved a bit in some areas, gone drastically backwards in others. Still a good holiday destination, but now looks like any other African city. Hawkers selling their wares in the CBD, bad crime, no road rules and broken traffic lights etc but beautiful beaches. The story of our life unfortunately.

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Times have indeed changed there. You have had some valuable advice here I can see. There is a small but well established South African community here, all here for the same reason. The flora and climate is very similar to SA, with parts of Andalucia not dissimilar to the high veld or karoo. I would certainly look into areas with all year round business, iow the western costa del sol, and the big cities. A lot of coastal areas are virtually dead for most of the year. Work is a sticking point, Gib is not a bad idea, and in the area there are hundreds of brand new apartments for rent for little money untill you get your self settled.

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Hi Ivorb

Just to repeat my question - can you not work from home on the internet?  Many do here in the backwoods.

Sorry to hear about South Africa - but it was inevitable, I'm afraid.  I won't even mention Zimbabwe - whoops! I just did!

Max

 

 

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Thanks guys. Yes, this forum is amazing. The advice has been  very valuable. Max, I don't really have an internet based business. I sell fairly complex accounting software, which requires hands on. I now wish of course that I had started a web based business a while back. Rob, I do keep gravitating to the South West / Gib area so assume we will probably start our recce there. I have heard that there is a fair SA population there, but must admit, never actually thought of there being a bunch of  South African's there. Very sad, but I do believe we are an extremely tough bunch. I am in fact looking at this as a great adventure, rather than leaving here for negative reasons. Fortunately, the general consensus looks as though we should be able to make it in Spain.  I now need to sell the concept to my wife. Almost there.

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As you mentioned the biggest issue you face, and the one you have the least control over is exchange rates. If the pound were to hit par as some are predicting there would be a fold of retirees going back to the UK as they could no longer afford to live here anymore. The main problem is most bought and planned budgets when the pound was overvalued, now that it's dropping it's putting a squeeze on alot of them. Personally I don't think the pound will hit par but we will see a continued weakness.

Personally my suggustion would be if you do move to try and get assets/income in euros to offset the exchange rate risk, eaiser said than done, I understand.

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One more thing that I'm sure that you have thought of.......your accounting software is presumably in English and set up for the South African market.  Will it not require a fair amount of tweaking to be able to sell it here in Spain? 

 

Not a serious problem for you if you have 2k a month and no mortgage.  Unless you are used to a very wealthy lifestyle, or have 27 children, you will be able to live without working.  Honest.

Best regards

Max

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Hi Max,

The product is international, and will work in Spain (in fact anywhere), but simply doesn't have the market there. Sage is very big in Spain, (which was one of our bigger competitors, until they bought us out), and their original product, Sage Software already has the lion's share. I don't actually have the desire to try and start a new market, especially with beginners Spanish. I am probably a pretty good all round IT man, (came through the school of hard knocks) so I'm confident I can do something. 
I will forward this post on to my wife, as she has become increasingly nervous about our potential "downgrading". We do live very well here, go out a lot and entertain,  but the lifestyle (I don't believe) is "wealthy".  I like your analogy of 27 children.  Only two Bull Terriers to feed and the kids can take us out when they visit.  You have re enforced what a few have said and given me a great boost. Thanks for that.

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Hi,

I have read all the previous posts and they are correct in the fact that you can get the house you want for your budget. You do not have to go out in the sticks to find it, just shop carefully.
With regards to working - learn Spanish fast. You can get employment with Spanish companies. I am the only foreigner working for a Spanish company. There are plenty of Spanish companies advertising for english speaking personnel - you just need to know where to look - with a work contract you and your family are entitled to health care in Spain also once you have paid into the system for a certain amount of time you are entitled to unemployment benefit if you are unforunate enough to lose your job. I had a boss once who came from South Africa. He relocated with wife, children etc (no dogs!). He started off working for a company and then went on to run his own business. His wife did find it a come down from South Africa and out of all of them she had the hardest time adapting. It can be done and done well as long as you do not leave your brain behind. I have been here nearly 20yrs and experienced a lot of things some good, some bad. Trust your own judgement.

Good luck,

Moondancer

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Thanks Moondancer,

Also a positive post. Thank you.  I would like to go on my own ultimately. Have been self employed for 24 years and will quite likely find it hard to get back into the regimented corporate world, but will need that as a start till we know how the system works. Unfortunately, (or fortunately - depends whether you are arriving or leaving) we are extremely spoilt here in SA. I'm not really want to hang on to anything. I'm really looking for an adventurous move into retirement in a first world country while I still have the ability to earn Euro's for another 10 years or so.  Looks like we are going to be able to achieve that.   Thanks for you time. Much appreciated

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Hi

There are quite a few IT guys here doing web sites from their home.  I did my own (see maximeters - I'm not allowed to put urls on forum yet hence the code) using html and php/MySQL.  I have been quoted 1,200€ for a "professional" web site so you could probably earn a few bob with Dreamweaver or Joomla or the like.  The Spanish server I use (1and1) gives excellent performance for next to nothing per month.

I have worked (like Moondancer) for Spanish companies, but salaries are not impressive.  The best I have ever achieved as an official employee was 1,500€ pcm.  

Moondancer - if you know otherwise LET ME KNOW!!

Last comment  - Spanish city life is much more pleasant than the U.K. for example.  Less crime generally, and less bustle (can't speak for the likes of Barcelona though).  I absolutely love Granada and would be happy to live there if the need arose, although I would miss my little Spanish village.

Here's what we did 11 years ago - sold house in UK, put all junk into storage, got on a cheap last minute 2 week holiday to Benidorm (yeuch!!) and toured Spain in a hire car looking for the area we wanted to live in.  We found it, and tore up the return tickets.  

You could do the same (e.g. with a 2 month return) so that if you or your wife absolutely hate it, you have just had a long holiday and can go back to life in SA although I guess life in SA is getting more precarious by the day?

There are thousands of Brits living here on much less than you would have.

Good luck!   

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Hi Max,

You gave me these numbers some time back, which please me greatly.  

"Where we live, 2K a month would see you in comfort (assuming no mortgage).  During your 2 months, you could find a nice rural property for, say, 150,000€ (there are hundreds nay thousands), which for this price would be in good condition.  Spend another 20-30k to prettify it, which would still leave you 70K in the kitty."

Assuming we can do this, with a bit of web development for extra income on the side and a contribution to the healthcare system, looks like we will afford a good life in Spain. I am not a web developer, but also did my own using Dreamweaver. (I need to learn to use it properly). I am assuming that this will buy a house that I can fence for dogs and give my wife a garden to start designing. She is into landscaping, gardening etc. Never done it professionally but garden is a huge passion and she is fairly qualified.  Happy wife = happy couple = happy life. We are both into amateur theatre, she dances, is a choreographer, and is doing Flamenco at the moment. (Started before we spoke about Spain). I am the lighting man. Too old to get on stage, hence stopped that about 5 years back. People don't wan't to see an old fart on stage. Great stress reliever, unless you live in SA with blackouts. (Load shedding they call it). I don't think we will battle to make friends. I will not burn any bridges here, (in fact keeping an interest in Data Support Software, my business, I think I already mentioned that), but really determined not to come back. The cracks are definitely starting to appear in more ways than one. Precarious is probably a good word.

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Fuengirola (Málaga) has a thriving English theatrical group, but you will find these all over Spain.

Most country properties have a goodly amount of land.  Irrigation - now that's a different matter.  

There are plenty of Spanish gardening books available to help you choose the types of plants (succulents / cacti are good).

Best regards

Max

 

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Hi Ivorb (& Max),

I have earnt more than 1500€ pm (net). As I have said depends on where you look. 

If you keep on with your Spanish and look at sites like trabajo / laboris/ infotrabajo these are the sites that are geared up for people who want to work. If you only look on English sites or publications then you will never find what you are looking for.

Ivor - you need to keep in mind that if you want the money then you have to put up with Spanish working hours. I work from 9.30am - 1.30pm then 4pm - 8 pm Monday to Friday. With travelling times (especially bad in the summer) I can be gone for 12/13 hours a day. However if you only want to work for another 10 years then it might not kill you before you retire!

Be adaptable and take any job that you think you can do. It does not have to be forever but it will be a foot in the door. With Spanish employers - never be afraid to tell them how foolish they would be if they did not employ you. NEVER be backwards in coming forwards with a Spanish employer.

I must go now - I have to get back to the job I'm paid for.

Moondancer.

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Hi Moondancer,

I guess that you live in somewhere like Madrid or Barcelona.  As for the rest of Spain, wages have not kept up with UK.

I have always worked for Spanish companies, with purely Spanish or Spanish / English staff.  

My last gainful (sort of) employment was in Murcia.  In the centre of Murcia, the average Spaniard earns 900€ pcm.  My bilingual I.T. savvy daughter works for an English company as a secretary and gets 800€.  I was a rep for an English company in Murcia and was on 1,500€.  My step daughter works as a secretary in UK and is on, I think, 32,000 pounds which I reckon equates to over 2,000€ pcm.

How do the Spanish live?  The bottom line is "with mum".  In fact, I can't think of any Spanish who live in a purchased house with a mortgage (apart from 'protected' housing - i.e. government run housing projects).  Thanks to the change in demographics over the last 30 odd years, many properties have been handed down from expired uncles, grandmothers etc. in the form of inheritances.  These recipients are the lucky ones.

The lady I was renting from in Murcia still had both her sons living with her (well into their 20s) and she was still feeding them every day.  

The estate agency and construction markets have totally collapsed, (yes I have personal experience of these as well). 

I now have my own business - Google "maximeters" if interested - which we hope will go well.

As for Ivor B - if they have 2k to live on, why work?  We could live VERY comfortably on that (if we didn't have a mortgage!!!) and there is so much to do in Spain.  I'd throw in the towel and start walking club / course in algebra / learn VisualBasic / write a book / learn guitar / make wine / learn to cook tapas / oh you know - the list is endless.  All of the above wouldn't cost anything, note.

Must go - have a business to run!

 

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The real issue of whether 2000 euros a month is enough to live on or not will hindge on your fixed costs. I couldn't do it on that little of money beucase my fixed costs are too high.

Here's a breakdown of what fixed costs to expect, I've put my actual numbers in

Rent   950
Phone  100
Mobile    30
Utilities  100 give or take a bit depending on how much we run the A/C water is dirt cheap and electricity and gas expensive
Private Health-care 110
Cleaning Lady 100 or 25 a week
Total 1400 a month

I also budget about 200 a week for shopping gas misc etc. As you can see I would find it difficult to live on 2000 a month. This also doesn't include our car payment or any other payments you might have. As well as savings and holiday money. Depending on rent I would put the cost of living closer to 3000 a month, of course if you house is paid for than you can live on much less.

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Max Kite your correct about the spanish living at home till thier mid 30th

Had a couple of students yesterday, one was 30 still living at home, the other 37 with a young baby, married only 2 years. He could have passed for 25, I thought he made a mistake when he said his age he sure didn't look it wow!

Am I the only one with bad eyes here, my posts are always Font Medium while everyone else uses small, you all are making me feel old!

And that's with glasses on!!!!!

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Dear Bob,

Is this O.K.?  Yes, my eyes aren't what they used to be either.

My calculations were based on IvorB owning a property and car outright somewhere outside of a big city, and leading a relaxed life. 

Your rent is about the same as my mortgage.  Imagine how you would live if you weren't paying 950€ pcm!  I also imagine that they could manage their own cleaning. 
Also, we have a company called iberbanda which provides Email and phone for about 40€ pcm via microwave connection.  Includes 300mins per month free calls inland.

Regards

Max

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You guys just keep on with all the great information. Incredibly useful stuff. Yes, I can see that rent is the killer. If my plan works, we should hopefully be bond free and a good second hand car should keep me from supporting the bank. I notice cars are pricey in Spain compared to other parts of Europe. (Still cheaper than here)I assume if I bought one someplace else and drove it across the border, I wouldn't be penalised as a new arrival. I wonder if heavy tarrifs apply. 
By the by, If you want to do OK, you generally have to own your own business. I'm sure the same applies in Spain. Tax breaks like you can't believe. Our clients are all large corporates, so there is never even the odd cash sale, but many expenses do disappear in the business, which you cannot match if you are salaried and your employer deducts tax.  I will definitely do something, simply to keep the brain sharp and build up a nest egg for old age, but nice knowing that if it takes a while, we won't go hungry. I do reckon I can handle cutting my own grass. Will save a fortune in Gym fees.

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Interesting thread. I don't have a great deal to add really, but enjoying it all the same!

A couple of posters have mentioned rent / mortgage payments close to €1000 per month, and we've also seen that a great many Spaniards only earn around €1000 (mileuoroistas, I believe the newly coined term is) so it's not hard to figure out why we are in a "crisis"!

Definitely agree, that with an income of €2k per month and no rent or mortgage, a couple who don't mind the odd bit of dusting or lawn trimming, can live very comfortably, especially outside the major cities. If I had that coming in (without working) I think I'd buy a motorcaravan and just go with the flow. Costa del Sol in the winter, Asurias or Galicia in the summer...........and the Bullies would love it!

Ivor, about cars, have a good search through previous threads for info about this. You need to know what's involved if you want to import a car, even if it's from another EU country. There's no doubt you can make some savings, but generally, IMHO, not enough to compensate for the cost, hassle and time involved. It's just so much easier to buy a car here. There's no shortage of choice. Try www.autoscout24.es for some ideas (Spanish only, but easy enough to figure out!)

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yes buying a car else where can be cheaper but the Spanish bureaucracy  can be a real nightmare. If you do head straight to the Itv and get green import plates (you'll need ownership, orginal sales contract and copy of your NIE) then hire a gestoria, an absolute must in Spain.

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