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15 Mar 2007 4:20 PM by Juan Pánzon Star rating in Marbella. 156 posts Send private message

Juan Pánzon´s avatar

What a difficcult thread.....

As I was an employee and also I am proud to be a state agent or a sales person i am thinnking since days ago how to participate in this thread.....

I can only say, that if somebody worked ( good or bad) until close to give birth..... that speaks of that person looking after her job..... as It must be terrrible to go to to work with a 8 month belly plus on top the general bad feeling of the woman pregnant.

I am also ( but María can advise better) that in case of pregnancy only the first FIVE days are to be paid by the employer.... then please correct me if I am wrong.... social security takes over....

IN most countries of the world, there is a 45 days previous to birth and 45 days after birth for the baby to have her mother close by and in the case of Spain..... also the father is entitled to some time off work in order to "be" there if needed..... not everybody take that period.

So........ I do not give a damm that she is Argentine as I am, I do not even know who she is, but if you want somebody fired in Spain, a 30 days notice....... and a payment of one month per annum worked is the "trend" as I understand ...... unless it is a "despido improcedente"......... when the court rules....

With regards to the not working for 5 years after having a baby...... that works for perhaps 5% of the world population....... I know very few women that can afford that, not for saying families.

But the worst part of this story is, when it is said that " DO NOT EMPLY ANYBODY" or something like that...  That was gross......... like generalizing a lot...... and the fact that she was "ilegal" for over three years..... I think it was a low blow, surely caused by frustration........

Sorry Rixxy, but your Co. seems to have managed this matter without "left hand"......... should you have reached an agreement no 8000 euros....

Sorry to have to cross paths with you but since the thread is called "employees"...... why don´t we speak about the employees that are 2, 3 months or sometimes never paid...... about the Companies that finance themselves with salesman comissions.....

I think there is out there MUCH more hardworking people than we all think, and that they are paying the broken dishes and undergoing tremendous duress due to EMPLOYERS........

A friend that works in one of the "flagship" agents....... has not colected their salary for two months....... me 3 months ( unenployed now, off course)....... another...... 4 months..... some "employees" at some companies, (in "petit comitée") tell you over the phone when you ask for a viewing on one of their properties...... Juan....... we have not been payed for months........ even if we make the sale, you will collect by the next coming of the Halley´s comet..... if you do.....

So..... I think we need to start putting this business together in some way...... as I said in other threads.... Darwinism is at full force.... employers should respect their employees and viceversa.... otherwise the industry will go to the water closet....

I sincerely hope Rixxy reaches an agreement with my rebelious folk as I like her very much......  

And I hope nobody starts hating me for what I have posted.

And a lot of luck in the exhibitions.

Juan.


_______________________
"I knew a lad that went to sea and left the shore behind him, I kne...



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15 Mar 2007 5:50 PM by Gillespie Star rating in Costa Calida Area. 608 posts Send private message

Gillespie´s avatar
Hello Juan,
 
I haven’t seen your posts for a few days so welcome back.
 
I think from your message that you have left your job because you have not received any pay, if this is the case you have my sympathy.
 
Also it seems true that many companies in our industry are not paying their staff as I’m certain they are in most cases close to going bust. For some they may be using the money as you suggested to stay in business for themselves, maybe a few have the honourable intentions of paying their staff if they can sell their way out of financial trouble. I suspect when this happens to a company it is the beginning of the end and all loose their jobs and businesses.
 
When I arrived in Spain I worked for several months for an English agent, I sold 61 houses at an average of €1,800 and never received a cent! I didn’t think I would come to Spain and be robbed by a 67 year old lady pensioner. I was no fool but it happened anyway, so I know about bad employers.
 
I’m sure Rixxi wasn’t having a go at your fellow countrymen Juan as you know her as well as the rest of us she has a good humour and biting wit!
 
It is obvious from your posts to the forum Juan that you are a gentleman, and obviously proud of your job and profession, you have much respect here. I agree if only bosses and their staff would respect each other that would be ideal, however I have had my own business in a few different industries for over 25 years and many disappointments with some of the employees. On a few occasions I had to fire them to protect my company, my name and other genuine staff members. So a certain cynicism begins to grow towards employees like a protective shield. When you become an employer all the problems start and stop with you and so you have to do something about it, that’s when hard decisions have to be made …very stressful when it involves peoples lives, it’s like taking the food off their tables.
 
You have posted a very good argument in defence of loyal and honest employees in your good English and very eloquently. It’s refreshing to be reminded of what a good member of staff is.
 
 Good Luck Juan

_______________________

Business advice and consultancy - Visit www.calidain2business.com

Calida in2 Business - Spanish Property Clearance.

www.spanishpropertyclearance.com




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15 Mar 2007 9:16 PM by Rixxy Star rating in San Pedro. 2010 posts Send private message

Rixxy´s avatar

Hi Guys, was looking through emails and felt I had to respond.

Juan - it does notmatter to me at all what nationality she is, its irrelevant. What is relevant is that we took her on when she needed work, she was self employed always and then after saying she was going to leave in september, she stayed on literally until 2 days before the birth.

Now, I admire workers - Im one myself but have never taken the p*** out of anyone I worked for.

Instead of leaving with agratuity payment (we had already decided how much to give her for the baby), she expected me to pay her social payments for the 4 months she claimed maternity and then come back. Unfortunately she was not good for the business, quite rude to customers, turned up very late when alone in the office - the usual thing.

I saw a genuine way to let her go - after all she has a child to look after, her partner has his own bar/restaurant which does well and the flexible hours he can offer her would suit them both better - she would also work there and then be late or hungover coming into the office - oh and thats on top of not turning up at all due to ulcers, blood pressure and any thing else you can think of before she was pregnant - my goodness, Im self employed, no turn up, no pay!

She got very generous cash bonuses as well on top of all that

So being self employed and invoicing us, now she decides she is an employee and her advisor has somehow worked out we owe her over 8000 euros - a sum no one can work out.

We have made her highness an offer whih I hope she accepts to put the end of it and that is at the expense of paying my own mortgage, bills and my children

I too have young kids - they need feeding, I have never caimed off the state and am totally self-sufficient and have been for years. I wanted something I got off my backside and worked for it, not played the system

She knows she is not being fair, just downright bloody greedy

I know many people who have pride and would not do such a thing.

We are a small business and to have this hanging over our heads is incredible - and even if the business goes bust, I personally have to pay it, so the law is being used well and truly against me.

I would never fall out with you Juan, I enjoyed your company at the meeting and its actually refreshing to debate issues with likeminded people.

Well, its 9pm here (10pm spain) so im going to get some food - havent eaten since lunchtime, and then back to the box that masquerades as a hotel

The only good thing is there is an inhouse nightclub underneath with free entry, but tomorrow night there is a posh party which I am very much looking forward to putting on my glad rags and having some fun!!

Night night guys


_______________________

Quite frankly m'dear, I don't give a damn!

www.herbalmarbella.com




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15 Mar 2007 9:44 PM by Juan Pánzon Star rating in Marbella. 156 posts Send private message

Juan Pánzon´s avatar

 

Hello guys,

Many thanks for your civil replies, I just wanted to say that at no moment whatsoever I tought that Rixxy was having a go at my folks, she is too much of a Lady to do so, I know her in person and I woud never-ever think so.

This was obviously a case of bad advising on both sides, nothing that Neville Chamberlain coulnd´t have solved.

Juan.


_______________________
"I knew a lad that went to sea and left the shore behind him, I kne...



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15 Mar 2007 10:50 PM by Smiley Star rating in San Pedro de Alcanta.... 2502 posts Send private message

Smiley´s avatar
wNSTON CHURCHILL COULD PROBABLY HAVE RESOLVED IT BETTER - IF I RECALL PEACE IN OUR TIME WAS MEANINGLESS - I TRULY SYMPATHISE WITH RIXXY - WHILE THERE ARE ALWAYS TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY IT SEEMS SHE HAS BEEN WELL AND TRULY SHAFTED - THIS WOULD BE THE CASE WHATEVER THE NATIONALITY OF THE SUPPOSED "EMPLOYEE". HER STORY OF WOE IS NOT THE FIRST TIME I HAVE HEARD THIS AND IT IS NO DOUBT THAT IT PREVENTS PROPRIETORS OF SMALL BUSINESSES TAKING PEOPLE ON - EVEN IF IT MEANS THEY END UP WORKING MUCH LONGER HOURS THEMSELVES AGAINST THEIR PREFERENCE - SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CANNOT DEPEND THAT THE LAW WILL GIVE THEM A FAIR AND JUST HEARING - SPOKE TO SOMEONE RECENTLY WITH A HIGH TURNOVER OF STAFF - PERPETUALLY TAKES PEOPLE ON WITH A TEMPORARY 6 MONTH CONTRACT AND THEY HAVE SIX MONTHS WORK AND THEN GONE AND HE HIRES ANOTHER - HE HAS BEEN CAUGHT A COUPLE OF TIMES BUT HAS TAKEN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION - IS IT IN HIS INTEREST - NO - HE HAS TO RETRAIN SOMEONE EVERY SIX MONTHS AND THE EMPLOYEE HAS NO INCENTIVE TO DO THE JOB PARTICULARLY WELL AS THEY KNOW THERE IS NO FUTURE - DEFEATS EVERYBODY BUT AT LEAST HE WONT FIND HIMSELF IN THE BROWN STUFF WITH HAVING GIVEN EMPLOYEE RIGHTS

_______________________

Smiley - patrick@marbellamortgages.com  www.marbellamortgages.com   www.comparetravelcash.co.uk




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16 Mar 2007 8:04 PM by Juan Pánzon Star rating in Marbella. 156 posts Send private message

Juan Pánzon´s avatar

"- NO - HE HAS TO RETRAIN SOMEONE EVERY SIX MONTHS AND THE EMPLOYEE HAS NO INCENTIVE TO DO THE JOB PARTICULARLY WELL AS THEY KNOW THERE IS NO FUTURE - DEFEATS EVERYBODY BUT AT LEAST HE WONT FIND HIMSELF IN THE BROWN STUFF WITH HAVING GIVEN EMPLOYEE RIGHTS"

Well..... I assume that the quality of the service offered by this person must not be the best.... or maybe is a job that requires no qualifications whatsoever.... in any other case, I do not see the advantage of this, taking into account the tax benefits that the employer receives when making an employee "fijo"..... It is so difficult to find good, comprommised people with a life expectancy of six months.....

Anyway..... if you lay somebody off, you just have to pay the proportional vacations owed+ one month per annum worked.... altough I would love Maria De Castro imput on this matter... I think it is a pittance....

And I know very well what it feels to lay off somebody.... my father used to have sometimes 600 people working for him.... at the "end" I personally had to lay off people that was working for my family since before I was born.... it felt like "Scheisse"..... some of that people had me in their arms when I was a todler and run around my Dad´s factory...... can you imagine? People with 35 years of service? so.... 35 salaries + vacation?  I was the Godfather of several of their sons and daugthers....... perhaps this explains my being in Europe.... and having to start again...

That´s why sometimes I think, when peole speaks about "crisis" ..... how to mask my smile..... NOBODY knows over here, except the ones that lived the WW what a real crisis is.... and social rights..... I think that humankind has fought to the last drop of blood for this since centuries ago, It feels a bit insesitive to try to deny them because of cases that under no circumstance are even "estatistics"..

People over here, for the most part, works their backs off....

Cheers,


_______________________
"I knew a lad that went to sea and left the shore behind him, I kne...



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20 Mar 2007 10:05 AM by Rixxy Star rating in San Pedro. 2010 posts Send private message

Rixxy´s avatar

Yes Im sure a mediator should be able to sort it out but the one we went to see was not interested at all. I find Im too angry and upset about it to be able to speak civilly to her - I wake up each morning seething about it and now even after offering her money I have had a citation to go to court end of April.

I think I will go dressed in rags and with my kids barefoot. Just who do these people think they are!

Its certainly making me think twice about keeping Maria in our office who is absolutely wonderful and wahts really wrong and not liberating at all for women Juan, is that just because she became pregnant I could not have laid her off as its seen to be getting rid of her as she is pregnant! So a couple of months pay and one in hand would be fine!

No idea where the sum has come from but after all of this you will all see posters out by the roads naming and shaming her

There is more than one way to skin a cat and revenge is a dish best served cold.

I dont get mad (although Im absolutely fuming) I get even and boy will I get even!


_______________________

Quite frankly m'dear, I don't give a damn!

www.herbalmarbella.com




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28 Aug 2008 3:14 AM by Susanspain Star rating in Mijas, Malaga. 145 posts Send private message

Susanspain´s avatar
OK - 18 months on - and hoping the matter is 'sorted' rixxxy - to YOUR satisfaction?
I am new here and this thread caught my attention. 
I fully understand that this woman took full advantage of you & the employment laws.  SHAME ON HER for being sooo
nasty!  (And yes - she will get what is coming to her somewhere down the line). 

I am hoping you finally got rid of her and have some closure on the matter. 

From an EMPLOYEES viewpoint - I have lived/worked here since 2000.  It took me till 2005 to get a full contract (which gave me those full rights you mention)... but I was badly treated by the co I worked continuously and industriously for for all those years.  At the time of leaving (2006) I was so ill (through abuse, over work, bullying boss etc) that I was barely able to make it to a 'legal representative' to help me.  In the end I opted for a € 3.500 pay out - over the €12,000 + the legal adviser said she could get me - as I wanted out so bad.  I found out later - that all the years they forced me to be self-employed didn't count for 'continuous service' in their eyes.  But in a different situation - I.e I had been well enough to deal with the situation - I would have fought - and probably could have got more.  But in the end I decided all the emotional effort would not equal the money, as really, truly, all I wanted was to be away from this crap employer.  (I am not looking for a sympathy vote here - as I know other posters have had bad experiences too - esp in the real estate business).  
The point I would like to make is:  It has now made me go against having any contact with the world of 'doing things properly' and I choose to make my living on the black market. 
I am sure many employers have had an experience of the odd person taking the pee - and hence their reluctance to give a full contract anyway.  (Again, I have many stories/egs of employers being taken for a ride - including a charity who barely survive on their donations anyway!).  

I just wish employers/employees could work harmoniously.  Is this asking for too much?

Regards to all, 
Susan 

PS - If you want to PM me I am prepared to name and shame the co I worked for (they are in the holiday/rental sector). 




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28 Aug 2008 6:26 PM by Rixxy Star rating in San Pedro. 2010 posts Send private message

Rixxy´s avatar
Hi Susan - yes it was sorted and it was daft as she ended up accepting the offer made to her - which was exactly what we were going to give her as a goodbye gift! I think she had to pay tax on it too, but it was the greediness and nastiness that got me.

I then employed a wonderful person as secretary /pa/friend as she and her family became. I had to let her go earlier this year as due to illness I had to draw down the business. She even offered not to take any pay off! What a difference. She was paid in full, had a glowing reference and after a short time found a fully paid position - we see each other every so often for coffee.

I guess it really comes down to the person adn your tale is not uncommon. Luckily I dont have to employ anyone now and have changed things around so I can cope this way.

Good luck to you

_______________________

Quite frankly m'dear, I don't give a damn!

www.herbalmarbella.com




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12 Dec 2009 8:08 AM by didlydoo Star rating. 14 posts Send private message

mmm this thread is interestind :-)





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14 Apr 2010 6:29 PM by ClaireVal Star rating. 1 posts Send private message

Dear Rixxy

Just read your email and totally sympathise with you.  The same happened to us.  We had a very successful property business and employed a Spanish girl on a permanent contract (no advice from our expensive lawyers on the pitfalls were given I might add!).  we paid her a good wage, all her petrol, all her lunches - every day, meals out, trip to London etc.  She sat on her fat behind with a face like a bag of spanners being totally useless - even when the property business went belly up a couple of years ago she did not have the decency to look for alternative employment like a normal person would do.  Offered her 3 months paid leave but OH NO!! - for all our kindness she sat there in our office all day whilst our so called lawyers totted up what she was owed for being totally useless.  Ended up paying her 8 months salary for less about 2 years employment (based on the pumped up salary of nearly 30k a year from the half commissions we gave her from OUR sales because we felt sorry for her)!  Bought her  a lovely leaving present (designer silver bracelet) which she took without even saying thank you!  Will never ever ever employ a person on a permanent contract in Spain ever again! The country in our opinion has not moved forward in the last few years since knobhead Mr Bean took over - in fact it has crawled to a standstill.  After many years living here paying IVA, Social Security etc. we are absolutely sick of this place - even the UK with its over crowding and stress seems like heaven at the moment - for us the Spanish dream has died.  The country is not helping employers like ourselves - its backward communist president is creating a country of non-creative security chasers with no ambition. Bitter...me?.....at the moment... yes very!  I wish you well for the future if you stay here - hard lesson learnt.  Good luck with everything Rixxy :)

 





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27 May 2010 11:57 PM by Andaluz92 Star rating in near Miami, Florida. 1 posts Send private message

Glad it all worked out Rixxy.  This kinda stuff why Spain unemployment rate traditionally so high and few new companies seek to establish operations there.  Unfortunately it takes us "extranjeros" a bit longer to figure the system out often by trial and error.  Same kind of stuff happens elsewhere also especially in Costa Rica central america.





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29 May 2010 1:43 PM by Marksfish Star rating in Vera, Almeria. 2624 posts Send private message

Marksfish´s avatar

 Just jumping into this old thread. So what do you do to protect yourself if you have a business and need to employ someone?

Mark





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30 May 2010 10:38 PM by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

Don't!

Simple - you employ family only!

Most Spanish businesses are made up of family and/or extended family. Who cares they can't speak English or translate properly etc?

Other than that keep "employees" self-employed and they are responsible for all their own taxes.

But NEVER give a Spanish (non relative) a job.

Just my opinion!





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19 Oct 2010 12:36 PM by MrSteven Star rating. 20 posts Send private message

 Hi Faro

   Yeah that's true I have a friend and she is a spanish there family owns a business there and the employees are just there family member. I ask her why she said it's there way to kept there business. 





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19 Oct 2010 1:40 PM by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

Also many of these small Spanish businesses are not very ambitious - ie no plans to take over the world.

They like the way it is - no pressure - no rush - no back stabbing ..........No bad thing really compared to UK corporate life!

But was there a change on employment a while back such that business could downsize due to recession without the BIG payoffs or was that just talk? 





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