"Tarjeta de Residencia" Question for Maria de Castro

Hola, Maria de Castro!

Thanks for your suggestion to visit Grazalema during our time in Olvera.  It is quite a lovely little town, as are so many of the pueblos blancos.

We just returned to the USA (we are American citizens) after completing the purchase of our house in Olvera, which included obtaining the NIEs.  Now I have another question that I hope you can answer:

We want to apply for long-term residency in Spain (Olvera) ... I under a retirement visa (I collect a private pension and will also be receiving public Social Security payments from the US government; my partner will be seeking a self-employment visa, as he will be teaching English and creating a small meal catering business in Olvera.  Our house in Olvera is paid in full (no mortgage), with sufficient funds already in our Spanish bank account to cover a year's worth of taxes and expenses.

Having researched how an American receives residencia in Spain, I realize that it can be quite a complicated process ... even though we can provide most if not all of the required documentation.  My specific questions are these:

(1) Do we begin the process of seeking our Spanish residency cards in the USA -- at our local Spanish embassy or consulate -- or do we travel to Spain with a regular tourist passport and THEN apply at our closest Oficinia de Extranjeros or police station (in Olvera)?

(2) Can the application for Spanish residency cards be done on our behalf by a Spanish lawyer to whom we have granted complete powers or attorney, or must we personally undertake all the paperwork and procedures?

Not being EU citizens, the process of seeking Spanish residency seems quite complicated and frustrating.  Any advice you can provide will be greatly appreciated!

Mil gracias, Maria.

--Bruce

Dear Bruce:

Please have answers below in bold green ( same text as your message):

Hola, Maria de Castro!

Thanks for your suggestion to visit Grazalema during our time in Olvera.  It is quite a lovely little town, as are so many of the pueblos blancos. Thanks! It is actually my paradise!

We just returned to the USA (we are American citizens) after completing the purchase of our house in Olvera, which included obtaining the NIEs.  Now I have another question that I hope you can answer:

We want to apply for long-term residency in Spain (Olvera) ... I under a retirement visa (I collect a private pension and will also be receiving public Social Security payments from the US government; my partner will be seeking a self-employment visa, as he will be teaching English and creating a small meal catering business in Olvera.  Our house in Olvera is paid in full (no mortgage), with sufficient funds already in our Spanish bank account to cover a year's worth of taxes and expenses.

Having researched how an American receives residencia in Spain, I realize that it can be quite a complicated process ... even though we can provide most if not all of the required documentation.  My specific questions are these:

(1) Do we begin the process of seeking our Spanish residency cards in the USA -- at our local Spanish embassy or consulate -- Yes.  or do we travel to Spain with a regular tourist passport and THEN apply at our closest Oficinia de Extranjeros or police station (in Olvera)?

(2) Can the application for Spanish residency cards be done on our behalf by a Spanish lawyer to whom we have granted complete powers or attorney, or must we personally undertake all the paperwork and procedures? You need to apply for it personally in the US.

Not being EU citizens, the process of seeking Spanish residency seems quite complicated and frustrating.  Any advice you can provide will be greatly appreciated! I can see not much difficulty if you apply for a non-luvrative visa and a self employed visa ( your wife).

Mil gracias, Maria.

--Bruce

 Aiiiiiiii ...

!Que jaleo!

The list of documents (and translations of these documents) goes on and on and on ...

But thanks, again, for your helpful counsel.

We will do the best we can.

In a "worst case scenario," we can travel to Olvera ... stay for three months ... and then leave the country (Gibraltar, Morocco, France, etc.), re-entering Spain with a new stamp in our passports and the ability to stay another three months, no?????

--Bruce

Bruce,

On your last point - no. First, you do not get a "stamp in your passport" passing between France/Spain. There are no border controls. What actually matters is your entry/exit into the EU. So, if you stay beyond the maximum time permitted, you have to leave the entire EU then re-enter the EU, not just Spain. I would not advise trying to do this via Morocco.

Andy

WOW!  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ... that puts an entirely new and different spin on the matter.  Thanks so much, Andy, for the sage information!

--Bruce

Bruce,

See the US State department advice on this:

"The Spanish Government scrutinizes visitors who overstay their visas or their visa-free entry per the Schengen agreement.  Immediate deportation after spending a number of days in jail is not uncommon.  Visitors should take care to exit Spain promptly at the end of the 90-day visa-free travel period or at the end of the time stated on their visa"

and:

"24 European countries are party to the Schengen agreement. This agreement eliminates all internal border controls between them. To enter one Schengen country is to gain up to 90 days of continuous travel between the member states. American citizens traveling for business or tourism are not required to have a visa for this initial entry into the Schengen area, but must have a passport valid three months beyond the proposed stay"

What this means is that you can only stay for 90 days in the EU on a tourist visa: while on a tourist visa you cannot work or obtain any kind of benefits or state aid. It is also worth noting that you cannot "extend" a tourist visa. You do not qualify for a tourist visa if you intend to stay beyond 90 days, or seek any kind of employment. If they believe you might be making any kind of false declaration, they can deny you entry on the spot and can ban you from entry for up to 10 years.  So, if you wish to become resident, you MUST obtain permission in advance as Maria states. Also, you should be 100% prepared to meet ALL of the requirements, as if you apply and are denied this stays on your record and any future attempts to enter the EU may be regarded as suspicious by border officers. I would point out that more or less similar requirements exist for EU citizens seeking entry to the US.

Andy

 Andy:

OMG!!!!!!!!  I had no idea how difficult matters could be ... and here we are in the process of selling a small "vacation bolt" we bought in Olvera for 49,000 euros while intending to purchase another property in Olvera for 137,000 euros as our full-time residence.  Now, you really have me worried--especially since we already have invested US $10,000 as a deposit on this property.  We probably should begin seeking our residency visas immediately at the closest Spanish consulate to us (Chicago) in the USA.

Thanks for sharing such sound and practice knowledge.

Best wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

The process for US Citizens wishing to settle, or work, in the EU is quite complex. There are a number of things to bear in mind. First, the general rule is that as a non-EU tourist you can only stay for 90 days out of any 180 days. So, a short trip outside the EU followed by rapid re-entry is not possible without (a lot) of questions being asked. Certainly if you do this on a repeated basis it will get noted - it is all on computers these days, of course. Overstaying is not an option. That gets you into serious trouble. As you have said, there is a 'retirement visa' option. Do be aware though, that even if you fulfill all of the requirments it can take many months to come through, even after the initial Embassy/Consulate interview. They say two months... the reality is more like 4-6 months.

You refer to a partner who will accompany you and who is not retired, but who will seek a "self employment" visa. The rules here are even more complex and demanding. I would advise seeking the assistance of a specialty immigration lawyer. You refer to your partner as "he" which means that the standard marriage-visa option will not be available. Spain does recognise certain same-sex Civil Partnerships, for example, those that are validated in the UK - but I am obviously not clear as to your own particular circumstances. Certainly, unless you are in a formal, officially recognized union, then there are major, major problems.  Non-formal partners (girlfriend/boyfriend etc.) have no entitlement to accompany you whatsoever. Again, a good immigration lawyer can advise. I would certainly be very careful about signing contracts, etc., until you have thoroughly clarified your immigration status.

Andy

Thanks yet again, Andy.  You obviously are well versed in these matters.  Are you an attorney ... or have you learned these lessons the hard way?

My partner (yes, a he) and I have official recognition from the state where we reside as legally registered "domestic partners."  Beyond that, however, we are planning to travel soon to one of four states (Iowa) here in the USA that grants same-sex marriage.  We will marry and get our legal wedding certificate which will be apposilated (sp?) before being included with my application for a retirement visa.  In the USA, marriage is considered a state -- not a federal/national -- government matter, so our marriage will be recognized in other states here, as well as in many other countries.

The question, of course, comes down to how the Spanish officials reviewing and determining our retirement visa request will respond.  Therein is the proverbial $64,000 question!

At this point, we have signed a contract to purchase a home in Olvera and provided a deposit of 5.000 euros.  Within four months, we are required to make another deposit payment of 2.000 euros.  The contract then gives us until 16 September 2010 to complete the purchase or forfeit our deposit.  Even now, however, given these challenging circumstances, we may very well lose our existing deposit ... as well as the friendship and affection of the lovely Brits from whom we are hoping to purchase their house, along with the estate agents and attorneys involved.

Following your earlier message, we did our best to contact all parties concerned with complete information about the challenges facing us, so that they can understand that the obstacles and roadblocks are those raised by Spain (and the EU) and not us.

Perhaps our estate agent and attorney should have been aware of the special considerations and requirements we would be facing as Americans seeking residency visas in Spain ... and advised us as such?

You have been a wealth of information and I certainly thank you profusely for all the information, knowledge, wisdom and advice you have shared.

My very best wishes,

--Bruce

Bruce,

While I would not expect an estate agent to be aware of the complexities of immigration law, I would have thought a lawyer should at least have advised verifying the situation at the very outset. Sadly, not all do, which is one reason why there are quite a few Europeans who buy properties in Florida and then discover that moving there is not the mere formality they had been led to believe....  while US and EU immigration law differs in many details, in principle and in effect it is quite similar. There are only a (very) limited number of routes by which a national of one can gain full time residence and employment rights in the other. Even in what would seem to be the most straightforward of cases, where say, a US citizen marries an EU citizen, it is far from simple or easy. My wife is a US citizen, and I am a UK citizen. Eight years ago she moved to the UK. To do this, we had first to obtain an "Entry Clearance" by attending an interview at the UK Consulate in New York. They wanted evidence of (my) financial stability and checked everything, identities, birth certificates, previous marriages/divorce papers, current marriage papers, etc. She was then allowed to travel to the UK. They checked everything carefully again at arrival at LHR. She then received an "Admitted for 12 months" stamp. After 12 months, a further application had to be made for permanent leave to remain. This was also no mere formality. Further checks were carried out and a hefty fee levied. Finally, she got her permanent residence. Since then, she has become a UK Citizen. This involved yet more checks, including for any criminal record (even a driving offense counts against you) taking a test, going through a ceremony, and a further fee of around $1100.  Had  I wished to move to the US, a similar procedure is required. It differs in the detail, but the effect is much the same: an awful lot of paperwork and substantial hassle/fees. They do not make it easy! And yes, I do have a legal background. That certainly helped.

We are shortly relocating to Spain full-time. The fact that she now has EU Citizenship makes that much easier that it otherwise would have been.

My advice would be to check the fine detail of all the requirements very carefully indeded, and to ensure that you have all the required papers in good order well in advance of filing any application. If necessary, seek adivce from a good immigration lawyer. There are no shortcuts or easy ways around this. You have to comply with the rules and go through the process, which is time-consuming and can be stressful (as well as expensive). It has all become much more difficult in recent years than it once was. This is probably due to a general "anti immigration" political climate (on both sides of the pond) and fears about growing unemployment rates, terrorism paranoia, etc.  It has certainly created a lot more hoops to jump though and plenty of new work for a legion of officials.

Anyway, good luck. I hope you get it sorted out in the end.

Andy

Andy

Andy,

Thanks for all that you've shared--the professional as well as the personal.

In addition to the sheer complexity of all the bureaucratic boondoogles and red tape, we find ourselves in a juggling act in terms of time: IF -- and WHEN -- we do sell our home here in the USA, despite the dreadful market conditions, then what?  Originally we had planned to auction (professionally) most of our furniture and furnishings, shipping the rest to Spain.  But that was when we were under the impression that gaining residency in Spain wasn't quite so complex and time-consuming.  So now, if we should sell our house within the first six months, say, of it being on the market (which is when most new "listings" do sell), then what?  It appears we won't have enough time to work through all the emigration requirements.  Do we go ahead with the sale, thankful that a buyer wants to purchase our residence in this dismal market ... sell at a discount nearly 350m2 of property (leaving us next to nothing) ... and spend the money to both put the remainder in storage while paying nearly 700 euros per month to rent a small apartment here while waiting and hoping for an affirmative response to our application for Spanish residency?  Obviously, that's a rhetorical question that neither you nor we can answer at this point.

Instead, we will take things one day at a time--collecting all the required paperwork so that we are ready as quickly as possible to submit our residency request.  We will be traveling 3 1/2 hours within the next two weeks to our neighboring state of Iowa, where we will be legally married and can obtain our license both translated into Spanish and including all the required apostilles.

Following your advice, we sought out qualified (and good) immigration attorneys in the two largest cities in our area: Chicago and Milwaukee.  Alas, all the lawyers here specialize in immigration (incoming) not emigration (outgoing) and have not been able to help us.  So, at this point, we're not even certain about the clause in Schengen Visa Application that "... all documents (except for the visa application) must be translated into Spanish."  Does that mean that all 48 pages of our health insurance policy ... as well as the US government's Social Security calculations and two private pensions (for me) -- not to mention the certificates of good conduct from the police department and good health from our doctor -- have to be translated verbatim, word for word, from English to Spanish?  Good grief: that could take forever and cost a veritable fortune!!!!!  Especially considering that it will have to be done for both of us.

Even proof of our own housing (in Spain) isn't a simple matter in terms of the residency visa application since the authorities are requesting the ORIGINAL copy (which is in Spain and hasn't been released yet ... nor for several more months to us) by the authorities.  We do, however, have a complete and notarized statement of our purchase transaction from the notario, showing that we own our property "free and clear," without any mortgage or encumbrances.

Similarly, I wonder whether the NIE which we each were required to obtain prior to purchasing the property is worth anything or comes into play when applying for residency?  It isn't mentioned anywhere in the required documentation.

As I said, we will take things one day at a time, always remembering the Spanish mantra: "Que sera, sera."  If it's meant to be, it will; if not, fortunately for us, we do have other options here in the USA.  Needless to say, however, we will be quite disappointed.

With your consent, we will continue to keep you posted on our struggles, victories and setbacks ... such as they are.

We really appreciate all the time and thought you have put into your postings to us and thank you, humbly and profusely, from the bottom of our hearts.

--Bruce

Gathering up all the papers and required documentation we already had compiled, I thought a proper consultation with the nearest Spanish consulate (in Chicago) would be helpful and appropriate.  After talking with the consulate staff I learned that:

(1) Unless my partner and I can come up with US $100,000 to deposit in Spanish bank account in addition to the private insurance fees and deposits required to the Spanish Social Security system -- which we can't ... we simply don't have funds such as those at our disposal -- he cannot request a "Self-Employment Visa" to enter Spain.  He may, however, be able to be included on my "Retirement Visa" request--if we get married and he is listed (with documentation and appropriate apostilles) as my spouse.  That means we would need to get married.

(2) Unlike Spain and all other countries, where marriage codes and licenses are national policy, the USA does not allow same-sex marriage ... except in four or five of its states.  The consulate officials wondered whether the Spanish authorities would accept an apostilled marriage license from a given state -- any state! -- instead of the country ... especially since we would have to travel quite a few miles to the nearest U.S. state granting same-sex marriage and marriage licenses.  Further, the official stated, the Spaniards might question why we got married in one state (Iowa) when we live in another (Wisconsin).  These questions would raise some of the proverbial eyebrows on the part of the immigration agents and that could lead to more problems down the road for us.

(3) Apart from some relatively simple though tedious documents to obtain (police records of good conduct for both of us, medical certificates of good health, etc.), two major and essential proofs would be required: health insurance and ample retirement funds.

--Health Insurance: Upon examining my comprehensive health insurance policy issued by a major provider (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) with ample covers the consulate staff stated they don't believe such insurance would be acceptable because it essentially covers protections while in America and only "emergency" medical coverage when traveling on holiday ... NOT when residing continuously abroad.  Health insurance coverage for me through an acceptable EU insurer would cost 3.359.52 euros a year, while coverage for my partner would cost another 2.976.44 euros each year.  Moreover, since it can take up eight months (or longer) for Americans to apply for residency visas and learn whether they have been granted, we would have to purchase these policies in advance of ever using them so we could document the policies along with all of the other required paperwork for residency visas.

--Retirement: Under a Spanish residency visa, IF the officials allowed my significant other to be considered my legal spouse, I would have to demonstrate that I would be receiving monthly minimum pension (private or public) payments of approx 1.350 euros to cover the two of us. At 60 years, I technically don't qualify to receive a pension for another two years--until age 62.  However, I brought documentation to show the consulate that we had more than enough in savings to cover this requirement for several years.  In fact, as soon as we returned from Spain, not only did we place our residence for sale with an estate agent ... but I sold my new car.  Indeed, the funds I received for selling my 2008 Mercedes-Benz and buying an old clunker would more than have covered the required monthly income for even more than two years; and my pension payments would actually begin in 18 months.  This isn't acceptable to the Spanish ... who insist on following rules "al pie de la letra."  Savings don't count toward the funds being considered for a pension.  Only pension funds do.

--A further complication is that if my partner enters Spain under my retirement visa, he cannot -- ever! -- follow his dream of beginning a weekly "Supper Club" catering business.  According to the Spanish, if he enters under a retirement visa, he cannot -- once there in Spain -- seek to change it to a self-employment visa.  Nor can he begin his business while in Spain under a retirement visa.  This would be cause for immediate deportation and even possible prison time.

(4) Moreover, we cannot enter Spain under our three-month tourist visas and leave for a day to another EU country (Gibraltar, UK, France, etc.).  We would have to travel to a non-EU country before re-entering Spain.  Doing this once might be ok.  But doing it several times to maintain our residency would could intense suspicion and investigation in these days of terrorism and international conflicts.  Further, should we attempt to circumvent any of the Spanish (or EU) residency requirements or falsify documents or try to compromise their requirements, we could -- and probably would -- be denied entrance to any and all EU countries ... even under a three-month tourist passport.

What this all means is that Americans are welcome to seek NIEs from the Spanish and purchase "vacation bolts" in Spain, but NOT full-time residences.  We can come and visit for three months at one time and then, again, for three months later in the same year.  But we cannot stay for more than three months or even leave after 90 days and return.  Evidently, EU nations have developed these stringent immigration policies because of world conditions and because the USA has similar restrictions and requirements on EU nationals seeking to retire or reside in the USA.

The people at the Spanish consulate said that, obviously, an estate agent in Spain wouldn't be aware of all these complex rules and regulations ... but they did believe that a Spanish attorney should have some idea, at least, about how complicated immigration to Spain can be for non-EU residents and counseled us to investigate further before entering into any contracts or legal agreements.

Be that as it may, we find ourselves with few options and limited allowances.  We have forfeited the 5,000 euros deposited with the sellers of the home we had hoped to reside in full-time and informed our estate agent that, under the circumstances, we won't be selling our small "vacation bolt."  For now, we will visit for holidays of up to 90 days at a time and invest some funds in dressing up our lower level which comprises a kitchen, salon and eating area.

How frustrating and absurd this all seems--especially in today's economic environment.  Here we were planning to retire and reside in Spain, spending money on a property and furnishing it.  We would be eating out, shopping, and contributing to Spain's economy ... but not now, at least, as we seemingly are being denied the opportunity.

Hi Bruce,

I must say I am not surprised by what you were told. It was to be expected. These rules are enforced very strictly by the EU, and vice versa by the US on EU nationals - who they consistently refer to as "Aliens" and treat with considerable suspicion. It seems to be a mind-set of immigration officials the world over. To be fair, they do have to deal with a lot of people trying to get in under false pretences on a daily basis, so it probably helps to take that view. Unfortunately, well-intentioned innocent people are regarded with just as much suspicion as those trying to take advantage. Some of the rules make no sense at all, others do. They are all enforced equally, however, and when seeking to relocate from one country to another you just have to be persistent and ensure you can "check the right boxes" every time. This is not always easy, but it is the only way.

Andy