Community Charge Non Payers

Hi all !

just received notification of a.g.m. for phase 3 this lists the people who have outstanding debts to the community, happy to say that in my block there are only 2 with outstanding fees. Maybe those who have not paid should be named and not just block and apartment numbers listed.

Margaret

I have Just recieved note of the AGM for apartments on phse 2

It has a big list of non payers and one of the agenda items is to appoint a solictor of the courts to take legal action to obtain the debts.

Any one who is a debtor cant vote at the AGM so cant see this wont get passed. I will be voting for it.

It is interesting in Block 38 not a single person is upto date with fees.

I hope we are not cleaning the communal areas inside the block or fixing there lift or am I being harsh.

Richard

i agree here with regards to lifts etc - nothing should be fixed in this block as long as it does not affect the general tidyness of the area.

should the non payers be using the pools?

the rubbish bins?

is there a way for comiee to get their rights for golf etc withdrawn?

name and shame?

I do agree with everyones's sentiments that it is an intolerable situation especially when you consider that the total debt for Phase 2 apartments amounted to 120,000 Euros as at 31st December bearing in mind the total budget is just over 400,000.

I agree there will be no problem passing the motion to pursue legal action but unfortunately that exposes us to further costs and massive delays knowing the Spanish legal system.

Having talked to other communities outside Roda, there would appear little else we can do as it seems it is not even possible to deny owners use of the facilities and they can even rent out there apartments.

I for one am happy to pursue what other actions can be taken if at all rather than wait for court action.

It would appear that a vast number are still not paying because of various problems with Roda, perhaps the administrator needs to spell out to them how communities operate and that the only people who suffer from non payment are other owners. Mind you Roda's customer relations and after sales does not help the situation.

I have a feeling that even this would not stir the conscience of the non payers but we do need to put our heads together to come up with some positive but legal ideas for the AGM.

PS The problem of non payment of fees is not confined to Spain as there are plenty of apartment blocks in th UK whose managers face exactly the same problem.

just received agenda for phase 2 annual general meeting; there is a list of nearly 100 mnames as non payers of community fees. Part of the agenda is to obtain approval of the liquidation of the debts for unpaid dues to the community, with the intention that the community can initiate legal proceedings to obtain theses amounts,according to the ruling in Article.20.2 of the Horizontal Property Law.

Patrick

hugh-man ; can you tel me what has been done to notify the non payers?

hve they been sent letters?

if so , were they sent to the roda post boxes or their home addresses.

i ask as we only get to check our roda post boxes every few months and i imagine some people get to check even less.

i have paid by the way, and i would be quite willing to go and chap the doors of the non payers and deliver letters personally ;-) ?

Arky

You would have to ask the administrator for a definitive answer but as far as I know ALL correspondence is sent to the mailing address each owner originally nominated to Roda who would have passed that onto the administrator. Having said that knowing how good Roda's info is, it would be possible for the administrator to be missing some.

I receive all mail at home address but others may differ. They should have received notification of their late payment plus an additional 20% fine if over 6 months late.

At last years AGM Roda still had possession of 47 apartments on Phase 2 and some were still completing but hopefully this should now be all sorted so the figure is more realistic. I believe Roda were paying fees for those not completed.

On Phase 3 there will be massive problems of communication as a large number are delaying completion or trying to cancel entirely

Would love to here what total is on Phase 1 as their AGM is also close..

A quick check by the administrators that all addresses are correct might not be a bad idea. For example our post arrives at our UK home but after our UK post code they type San Javier, Reino Unido.

A small error I suppose for us, but an example of a possible cause for delay if other addresses are not correct.

If we can't make the AGM we will ask our proxy voter to bring this up.

I have paid my fees but I can totally understand people not paying because I've been paying a mortgage for nearly 2 years now plus fees and Roda have still not opened a shop on site, bloody ridiculous!  The lack of facilities makes rentals very difficult to obtain.  Roda should take a look at themselves.

Paul
 

Paul

I, like many other completely sympathise with your view, the problem is that non payment of fees has no affect on Roda it only affects the community and thereby all other owners in that community. Should it come to a situation whereby services need to be cut because of lack of funds that will only serve to further damage and deteriorate the area and where will that get us.

Surely we would be far better by ensuring our communities are looked after and separately or collectively put pressure on Roda to deliver at least basic services which at long last look likely.  We must all remember however that soon all sorts of local businesses will be forced to close their doors, so new businesses taking on leases at Roda will be very circumspect.

The problem is the more that non payers are seen to get away with not paying and no action taken then more people will decide not to pay and you go down hill very fast. 

We all keep saying how great this resort will be given time but it wont if the communities fail. 

We all must try and think of things that can be done that will disadvantage these people and there renters.

Roda should certainly take back the discount cards for the bar and golf course as a start.

I am sure if a golfing client is looking to rent an apartment with a 20% golf discount would have more appeal than one with no discount.

Richard 

There is a lot of info about this problem on the General Spain Forum: Community charges..... non-payers....direct action?

Acording to what I've read on there it seems that legal action is the only option as to take direct action such as withdrawing services etc. to individuals is illegal in Spain.  This problem is rife throughout Spain and will probably get worse because of the current economic situation.  However, if court proceedings is the only option it will probably take  a long time  and we may as well start asap.

hugh-man, with regard to it costing the community to take these people to court, according to the thread mentioned, once an amount is over 300 euros there is no cost at all to the community.  I don't know if you've heard this too? 

I've suggested before that we need a notice board at Roda for community/social information.  Would this not be an ideal place to 'name and shame'  the non-payers?   The amounts outstanding are enormous and the community surely cannot function efficiently longterm  unless they are recovered. 

Paul, I know exactly what you mean!!!!!!

Jane

Hi all

I am on Phase 1 and have always been up to date with my community fees, although I will say it causes me great pain to pay them when I see what is going on (not going) in the resort.  I hope you will not think my question stupid but if we were to take non payers to court, who actually pays the court/lawyer fees.  We all know legal processes in Spain can be very expensive and drawn out.  I would hate to think my community fees are going to resolve problems of non payers and some more emotive issues in the resort have never been solved.  Am I mistaken or does Jane mean that it will not cost  community fee payers anything to take the non payers to court.  I also agree partly with the name and shame but as we all know Roda is a big resort and we don't necessarily know everyone by name.  Also do the non payers really care?  

kroda

Jane is correct there is plenty of information regarding community fees on the General Forums but I would urge anyone interested to certainly take a look at    

  www.justlanded.com/english/Spain/Articles/Property/Community-properties-in-Spain

It is a rather lengthy article but has some good information on how communities work and what options are available against non payers. Basically their debt becomes a fixed charge on their property and it could be sold by auction as a last resort.

Hugh-man is absolutely correct in saying that non payment does not affect Roda/Caladona in the slightest and people with snagging issues etc are not doing themselves any favours by not paying.

 However way back in this thread I mentioned like Kroda how it causes great pain when having to cough up and I listed 7 reasons why this was. 6 of these reasons were down to the community and nothing to do with snaggs/Roda or calidona. They were issues that should have been addressed and have not been. Surely we are entitled to lower charges or rebates from the community if it is not doing the job it is set in place to do.

I think many of the non payers may have issues with the community itself and not Roda/Calidona.

RD

To answer some of your original points

1. & 2. Pool and walkway lights, yes there were many problems last year mainly due to poor circuitry put in by Roda. I and others were constantly on at Marisol and Roda to get these fixed and I believe they are now mostly working ok. I am not sure if Roda fixed them or if the community had to cough up.

You may note next time you are there that some will be off, this was trialled in some brighter areas to try and reduce electricity bills.

3. Rubbish bins, All communities along with Roda contribute to these being collected privately and I must say the collections are far more regular than in UK. I can only suggest that if people were moving in there was excess packaging or it may have been a very busy period. Those bins are huge and there are plenty of them.

4. Garage doors, it is possible that people opened them manually as they did not have a remote then did not close them, it may be a resident or renter problem as most seem to be ok in Jan.

5 Sorry to hear your daughter was hurt by filter, but I assume this is set at the pressure required to clean that size pool. Did you report it to Marisol

6 Must of us were informed by agents and possibly by Roda of lower charges but I think we all now realise that was pretty sharp sales practice as were many other promises. When you consider amount of lifts and garden areas, the two biggest costs you can see why they are set as they are. Looking at other sites we are neither cheap or expensive

7. Commercial centre and hotel is purely a Calidona issue and has been covered elsewhere.

Hope you will be at the AGM, remember the community is owned and run by us, we have to take some responsibility in ensuring the community's paid contractors including the administrator are up to the job.

Fair comment Chris,

If things are getting sorted I hold my hands up, Iam not in Roda as much as I would like to be so maybe I am not in the best position to judge, but did have all these issues at the time, and yes I did report the incident you mention to the administrators and sent photograghs because I was concerned for smaller children than my daughter playing near these filters, but although I had a reply saying it would be looked at some time back I havent received anything since.

The point I am trying to make is that (although I may not agree with them) I can understand some people holding back.

These people are just a percentage of the non payers, another percentage is probably made up of investors whos apartment are laying empty and have no intention of paying and will face the consequences when they sell up, another percentage is probably people who simply cannot afford it with the down turn in the economy,rentals and the Euro. Whatever the reason whoever votes at the AGM will have to know what the court costs will be and if they can be recouped, because if some people are determined not to pay up all the courts in the world wont make them, and my concern is that our fees will go up to pay for the legal bill. Mind you its catch 22 because they will probably go up to pay for these non payers anyway. Not a very useful thread I know, sorry. 

I suppose its kind of a bit embarrassing really as I started this thread but I have just recieved the phase 1 'community of owners' letter prior to the AGM and my apartment is on the list as owing community fees :-0

Couple of worrying things spring to mind:

1. My community fees are taken by direct debit (from day 1) and I will now have to check that they were actually taken last year. I remember recieving the bills which were pretty close together but will have to check that they actually took the money. So if they havent taken the money then why not?

2. If they didnt take or get the money why havent they told me I am in arrears?

3. How many other people has this happened to?

4. Why aren't non payers being badgered or reminded for the cash?

Sounds like you get sent a bill and you pay it or you don't. If you don't your apartment code is listed in the letter along with 150 others.

The letter also says that Im not allowed a vote at this years meeting now I am in arrears of 450 euro so Im not even welcome to clear the good name of my poor little apartment.

Gutted!

C

I have just received the noitification of AGM for Phase 1.  Luckily enough I do not owe anything but I probably do feel a lot worse than those who don't pay.

They (the non payers - all 135,000 + euros) are probably happy they haven't paid as there has not been much improvement since last year on many issues.  So why pay for something you don't receive!?

I notice the apartment above us have not paid but when we visit they continually keep us awake at night and spoil our time there.

Maybe the community should be using examples such as this to do something especially if the apartment is being sub letted.

I am sorry but I do get fed up, as I said a long time ago you would not go into Marks and Spencer, pay money for something which isn't worth anything!? Do we in fact need a new administrator??

kroda 

Hi Big C,

I believe when you recieve your community  bill, you have to sign the attached form and send it back by fax or post allowing them to take the monies from your account. We set up what we thought would be an automatic standing order but were told that we still had to return the signed form for monies to be released!!