save our community by voting against any further action!

Save our community, (a personal plea from me)

Hi everyone on Playa Golf 3 R3,

Well once again it’s nearly time for that AGM. We were out last week in the 30+ degrees nicely roasting over a cool beer and our temporary president Neil was walking around the urbanisation distributing documents for the residents who were out at that time. The beads of sweat on his head glistened as he made his way from house to house, well done that man, not something I would like to do!

If you have a chance to read the documents please go through them, its heavy reading but worth it, as you will see that the cost of action per owner could be over 5,000€, and if like me, this is money I just cant give away randomly and with no guarantees that it will not go even higher if the case is lost and damages are sought by those who have been taken to court.

So what are the chances of winning this action?  

Well San Jose (the company responsible for the construction of our properties) originally offered to make these modifications to the properties.

This coupled with the fact that on Playa Golf there are other under and overbuilds that have been approved and have now set a precedent for the whole of Playa Golf, and to set the record straight; firstly, you will be able to sell your properties once this resection is over and people have the confidence to buy again, secondly you will be able to insure your property and finally, what other people do with their properties has absolutely no affect on your property as long as the work has been done in the correct manner, conforming to building regulations and planning laws.

So when you vote or nominate a proxy to vote for you, think of what has been written in the documentation regarding cost and licenses, get confirmation from your insurers as to how you stand and  "save our community by voting against any further action!"  

Hi whats this about save our community vote against ant further action i have a villa on playa golf 1 and dont know of any problems

Hi Mark, this post is aimed at owners on Playa Golf III R3 only.

We are having our annual AGM soon and we are voting whether to take legal action against some of the owners on R3 who have had extra rooms built under and over their properties. This proposed action has put a big dent in the community on R3 and I am hoping that this post will start a discussion among the residents of R3 and resolve problems.

So this issue will not affect Playa Golf 1 or 2.

Sping…

Hi Sping.

We have just got back from a very enjoyable six weeks at Playa Golf 3 and whilst it would seem that the majority of owners are reasonable and responsible and are willing to allow the Town Hall to make descisions, There are still a couple of owners who seem hell bent on bringing the community to it's knees !!.

As you would notice when last over, the community spirit has been dented by the division and owners are fearful of a possible 5 times increase in their fees, just to satisfy the petty jealousies of a handful of vindictive indviduals. Can this be allowed to be taken further ?... I think not !!

I really do hope that common sense will prevail and owners will vote solidly against any action as any litigation and  subsequent compensation claims from either party could lead the community to be heavily in debt for years to come.

We are back over next week for a while so look forward to seeing you when next out.

regards

As a private individual who doesn't normally get involved in in this type of forum I felt compelled to air my opinion on the situation at present on Playa Golf III R3.

The previous posters seem to be firmly standing on the side of the "illegal builds" without taking into consideration the feelings and views of those opposed to these illegal builds.  Can they not see that there are two sides to every dispute and not simply that they are right so the rest are wrong. There have been 3 votes taken which had a majority in favour of legal action against these 9 property owners who in their own words admitted that "they took a chance "

As an onlooker I was taken aback by the language used in referring to some property owners by the last poster. Surely this is getting just too personal when posters are using inflamatory language like this. How can the divisions in this community ever be healed when posts like these are being made.

After reading the lengthy legal report I do not consider that the previous posters opinions are cut and dried as to the outcome of any legal action, in fact the report says that the community has a strong case.  I hope that everyone has taken the time to read the legal report and make their own considered decisions and do not simply follow the interpretation of the pro illegal posters.

Finally I would ask that if at the AGM the vote goes to take no action does this mean that in the future anyone can extend or alter their property with no fear of opposition or legal action from the community as a precedent will have been set  in Spanish Law ( I refer to page 52/53 of the legal report).

This started out as a lovely friendly community but through the actions and words of some property owners it has become quite the opposite.

We would like to voice our support for the email from Ravenhill. At last, the voice of reason! The few seem to be trying to enforce their will on the majority. This is not democracy ! They are taking the view that, if we disagree with them we are only doing it out of spite. This is not true. We are concerned about the community as a whole instead of siding with the bullies who are trying to bend us to their will. The vast majority of Play Golf III R3 just want to get things sorted out and back to normal. This is not going to happen while people are behaving like children instead of sitting down and talking to each other. In the adult world negotiation is the key to settlement. This means give and take on both sides but it can be done if people are willing. So come on, instead of wasting time trying to blame the problem on other people, let's get round a table and talk about it. Who knows, we might find a solution.

It’s great to hear from others in this community who have different opinions. Some of the points I don’t disagree with but I have to ask myself these questions, will these builds have any affect on me or my property, and the answer is NO. Will these builds affect my buildings and contents insurance, the answer is NO. Will I be able to sell my property when the financial climate improves, the answer is YES. The issue is between the owners of the build and the Town Hall, who are looking into the matter. So why oh why would anybody whish to divide this community and alienate its members by getting the community taking this action against its neighbours instead of letting the council take action.

Have these owners committed a serious crime or have they worked hard to build themselves a place were they can retire and live comfortably.

I would love to know the reasons why this action was first asked to be taken and do they realise that we could all be landed with a great big bill that might exceed 5,000€ per property.

We were very interested to read Sping's posting but are curious to know where the information comes from. We have seen no documentary evidence to support the claim that the over and under builds have no detrimental effect on the rest of R3. Indeed, the opposite appears to be true if you read the report compiled by Fernando Campillo, Abogados. This states that no procedure has been started by the City Hall (page 19) and that the permitted building surface limitation of R3 has been surpassed (page 16). We would deduce by this that it impacts on all the properties as the maximun building surface has been surpassed (page 15),meaning, we assume, that all our deeds are now incorrect. If there is evidence to the contrary surely we should all be privy to this.

As to the cost of any lawsuit, the report gives an approximation of the cost as around E4,000 plus legal fees(page 44) which is significantly less than the E6,000 per property quoted by Sping. In fact, if you divide this amount by 72 (the number of properties less the empty ones and the ones in dispute) it works out at less than E60 each. A small price to pay for peace of mind.

In closing we would like to state categorically that no-one wants to take action just for the sake of it and certainly not to upset anyone. However, unless proof positive can be presented to disprove the findings of the report we have to accept and support it's findings.

Firstly can I start by quoting two sections of the report, I quote;

Page3, “Given the impossibility of access to those properties to value the technical matters of the construction, the report aim is merely theoretical”, and page 52; “Regarding the last paragraph, this is not one of our competences. From the viewpoint of an impartial it is not possible to make a recommendation whether to start or not legal action”.

In the past I have presented both e-mails and replies to posts from respected legal forum members, information regarding the affects on the community of the builds, and I reiterate; you will be able to insure your property, you will be able to sell your property and unless the construction work has damaged your property, there is no detrimental effect to other properties on R3, in fact I would say that those who have developed their homes would be in a better position to sell if need be.

The report mentions the “surface planned for every house, which cannot be over 0.4778m2. To my knowledge these properties have not exceeded their foot print or surface area, and so would in no way affect anybodies deeds.

As to the costs, well I didn’t say 6,000€, but in the region of 5,000€ and remember this is an estimate as I haven’t taken into consideration appeal costs etc. referred to, in part, on page 49 paragraph two. Somehow the 60€ each you mentioned is a bit of wishful thinking.

I can see that you might think you have a justified grievance but think of all your neighbours and what it would cost them, and consider that this whole procedure might take years to resolve legally, as Spanish law moves at its own pace.

If you truly do not whish to upset anyone, as you say, then stop the action by the committee, don’t involve everyone in this, take your grievance to the Town Hall and let the proper elected authorities deal with the problem.

In his last post Freddy states that he has "written " assurances from his lawyer that the over and under builds are not detrimental in any way to any property not directly attached to such builds so this begs the question that if your property is attached are these assurances then invalid.

May I ask why you felt the need to acquire these "written " assurances from your lawyer Freddy? Are you affected by one of these illegal builds yourself . If not why the need to go to these lengths?

I would also ask Sping how can anyone be assured that these illegal builds have been done to the satisfaction of local building control and that some have been done by property owners themselves and cowboy builders. If at some future date this illegal build causes problems with an adjoining property will Sping still stand over his statement.

All these statement from posters stating a legal action will cost this or that amount of money is all wild guessing and is simply fanning the flames and confusing people as to what the real costs might be.

Ravenhill, please don't read my comments and make your own assumptions.

The first rumours being circulating was that R3 in it's entirity was at risk and that all properties would be both uninsurable and unsaleable, whether attached or not !!...We did no more than to take legal advice for our own peace of mind and instructed a Spanish law firm to delve into the legalities and supply answers, which they did of course

I would have thought it prudent to spend a few euros for legal advice to protect anyones investment !... and I wanted to know the truth !

Freddy civility costs nothing!!!

Any assumptions I made were based on the wording of your previous email. Surely this is a forum were people can talk to each other and not be talked down by certain posters.  Was the legal advice you recieved for the whole of R3 or your own property?

Didn't mean to talk down to anyone, I just wanted to make a point without it being misinterpreted... We asked about the law and how it affected us on R3, we asked many questions but were not specific to just those being attached, we were more interested in getting answers that covered all of the properties... Although we were more than satisfied with the information given there was the usual caveat that any owner had the right to denounce their neighbour individually should they feel agrieved by their actions.

To answer your question Ravenhill, all the builds will have to submit plans and structural information to the Town Hall, this will then be inspected by the Town Hall inspectors and then a licence will or will not be granted. If the licence is granted you will have the piece of mind that the work conforms to all the necessary regulations and to the correct building standard, if no licence is issued then the owner in question will have to reinstate the work and make good the property with possible compensation to the other parties. If further re-assurances are needed then might I propose that those with the builds are required to take out buildings insurance that will cover the possibility of any future damage and that this be vetted by, and a copy kept by the president.

If it is your neighbour who has carried out the build, then maybe a polite word with them regarding plans and builders might serve to reassure you.

The bottom line here is that some residents are not happy with the builds for various reasons, and instead of taking their grievance to the correct authorities they have involved the whole community. If this matter were to be dealt with by the Town Hall then there would be no extra cost to the community, no animosity within the community and there would be a legal and impartial conclusion to the matter.

As to the comments of cost, if you read the report it clearly indicates the sort of costs the community will have to pay, and as the report also indicates that these costs are conservative indications as Fernando Campillo Abogados have not taken into account any costs for appeals, compensation or other out of pocket expenses and as you will be well aware, if the case lasts several years the costs can mount up to be a lot more than the 60€ you estimated and even more than the 5,000€ estimation.

My wishes for the outcome would be that we stop any further action by the community, hand the problem over to the Town Hall to sort out and to re-establish good relationships at the forthcoming get-together as organised by Neil, with help from the committee, who has worked really hard at being unbiased and working for the benefit of the whole community.   

First of all Sping I must also correct the statement that you made in your last post regarding my estimated cost of €60.  I have at no time suggested any figures as to costs and suggest you check you facts and attribute those details to Silent Majority instead.

Do you really think that the divisions between pro and anti illegal build property owners can or will be mended simply by the outcome of the AGM vote being to take no further action. Your suggestion for those with neighbours who have carried out illegal builds to have a polite word is really very simplistic because not all property owners are receptive to the views of others in fact some are quite gungho.  I think too many things have been said and fingers pointed for the re-establishment of good relationships in our community for a very long time.  Remember people do have long memories.

But would it not be a start ?

Ravenhill, I must apologise, you are correct, that figure was quoted by silent majority.

As to the other matter or reconciliation, well, none of us are perfect and we all have our own opinions and points of view and that makes for an interesting and divers community.

If only we were willing to admit to ourselves that, for the sake of the community, let’s follow a course of action that is impartial and doesn’t come over as personal.

Maybe it will take a long time for people to get back together. Things might have been said during this period of unrest and anger, but we have all said things in the past that we regret saying or whish we were more diplomatic in the way we say them, but if we don’t take small steps we will never achieve big steps. There has to be a start and a willingness to move forward. Stopping the action and turning the matter over to the Town Hall would be that first step.

Are we willing to give it a chance?

Hi south fork, the forums are intended as a platform for debate, airing individual views and presenting alternative points of view. Each posters opinion is only a personal opinion of that poster, and in this case the personal interpretation of report as each of us interprets it.

The way you vote is up to you and nobody can change your way of thinking, all we are trying to do is get a debate going and propose alternative opinions, everyone’s opinions!

My opinion is that if we go ahead with the decision to prosecute then we will permanently split the community; have to pay extortionate community fees over many years for an action that is not guaranteed to succeed and with no real benefit to the community as a whole. Forget plans to improve security in the Tulipans, forget the steps into the pool, and forget all the planned improvements for many years to come.

Like I have said before; why no go the whole hog and prosecute everyone who has had patio extensions, sheds built, steps moved, sliding gate installed, pools built or any other building work carried out. Why stop their, what about illegal TV receivers! Were do we stop.

All I ask for is common sense!