Where to Live in Spain...and Why?

Hi

We are sisters who are purchasing a downstairs bungalow for our parents to live in.  Expected completion date is the end of March 2007.  We are concerned about the ongoing debate regarding the licence of first occupancy not been completed.  I emailed our solicitors in Spain yesterday and they asked if anyone on the Taray site have not received the licence after signing for the Deed on their property.  Can anyone answer this? 

I'd be grateful for anyone's help.  We are very pleased with the property and site etc but want to be absolutely sure there will be no problems before our parents make the move to Spain.

Thanks

Becky

Hi Becky,

It is with some hesitancy that I reply to you on this topic, because the situation is still confused. According to our solicitors, the Licence of First Occupancy (PLO) is applied for immediately after the signing of the deeds. Indeed, it appears that residents on a corresponding Taray development are still waiting for their PLOs several months after completing.

It is not clear whether any member of this site has actually completed yet, although our agents AmbaSun told me today that several of their clients had already completed at Hacienda San Cayetano. For our part, we are due to complete next Wednesday 31st January. We will keep everyone posted on what happens with our own situation.

Regards,

Kevin & Sheila
Manzana 3, unit 47 (now no.7)

Hi Kevin & Sheila

Thanks for replying, I'll log onto this site each day now just to keep up to date with things. I'll also let our solicitors know your comments so that they are aware of the situation.  This is a great way of keeping in touch, really helpful to speak to others in a similar situation.  All information and advice gratefully accepted!

Cheers

Becky

Hi

Altho we dont complete untill March 2008 I did ask my solicitor this question at the beginning of january as she is really helpful and I was confused to how it worked. I was told that the license was applied for some time ago and they were expecting it anyday now. Now I really am confused!

Tina

p.s my husband is going to try and find out today the order these things should be done in. His works van is full of books 'buying in Spain' 2006. No solicitor fobbing you off just bare facts. I often wonder if hes reading and driving at the same time.... i hope not

Hi  Becky

There is a lot of confusion regarding the licence. Unlike Kevin and Sheila's solicitor ,who said it will be issued with the deeds, our Solicitor said that it will be issued when the site is completed. Does that mean another 18-24 months??!! Also if we are on builders supply how do we pay or do we get it FREE!!!!!!!!  Our Solicitor has reassured us that it is nothing to worry about and that it will automatically happen. Not really a very good answer. We should have completed last Friday  (not sure why it didn't happen, something about us not confirming with her to go ahead but we had already agreed to this date).The  new date is now this Thursday, 25th January. I will let you all know if it happens and if there is any mention of the licence of occupancy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards.

Gill. (Block 3, number 23 (Penthouse).

P.S. Hi Tina, I am sure your husband isn't reading and driving. He will wait until his lunch break before he ploughs through all his books. Lets hope he finds the answer before his hour is up.

Gill x

Hi

Couldnt get hold of hubby .... whats he up to???? so did a little research myself and found this

reported in 'The Times' Oct 29th 2006

Imagine buying a new home in Spain but not being able to connect to the mains. This is what happens if you complete on a new property without a licence of first occupancy (LFO), or licencia de primera ocupación in Spanish. Utility companies need to see this licence – issued by the town hall – before they can supply domestic accounts with water and electricity. But some big new developments are not receiving LFOs, often because of planning irregularities.

Jayne Arthur, 48, and husband John, 52, from London, rue the day in early 2004 when they completed without one, paying £140,000 for a two-bed flat in Mijas, near the Costa del Sol. “We have been relying on the builder’s supply for two years, and the problems have put us under a lot of strain,” says Arthur.

Developers often promise to provide water and electricity from the builder’s supply until an LFO is granted. The problem here is that the supply can be unreliable, and there is always the risk that it might be cut off. “There was a power surge on the development a few weeks ago in which many neighbours lost their air conditioning, fridges and burglar alarms,” says Arthur. “We had to pay £200 to have our air conditioning fixed, and now we’ve decided to shut down the fuse box until the utilities are connected.”

Under Spanish law you can’t be forced to complete without an LFO, but that rarely stops unscrupulous developers from putting buyers under pressure to do so. The best advice to all buyers is don’t complete without one. Having said that, in some cases it may be the most sensible thing to do.

Unfortunately for the Arthurs, their lawyer used a power of attorney to complete on their behalf without ensuring that an LFO was in place. “Other buyers didn’t complete until a few weeks ago, when an LFO was granted. But because we completed two years ago we’ve had to pay more than £2,700 in community fees, rates and wealth taxes for a holiday home we couldn’t use,” seethes Arthur.

“The lack of an LFO sets the alarm bells ringing,” explains Michael Davies, a lawyer based in Almeria. “It means you have to do more checks than normal and find out exactly why there is no LFO. Once you know what the problem is you can decide how risky it is to complete without one.”

Anyway make of that what you will. My opinion is Tarray are very trustworthy and im sure it will be all be fine, but certainately something to think about over a cup of tea and hot cross bun!!

Hi All

We are due to complete anyday and are waiting for our solicitor to tell us that they have the relevant paperwork from the land registry & the fin del obra. The solicitor has told us that the licence of first occupancy has not been applied for yet. We have communicated with several couples on the Torre Alacantara site & even though some of them completed in October they still do not have the document & are still on builders supply. One couple told us that this okay & they have not had too many problems with the generator. They do not have any idea when they will get the document.

As we were discussing with Kevin & Sheila the other day this is the mystery document that we are all getting varying stories on from our solicitors.

We hope to get an update from the solicitor tomorrow & we are going out on Saturday until the 31st. Will we complete, won't we complete???? Who knows??? It would be lovely to come back to England with the keys to our spanish pad, but if not hopefully it will happen before we go out again at the end of Feb.

We're not getting stressed about it - getting into the laid back Spanish way of life!!!!

Will keep you all posted

Good Luck with your completion Colin & Gill - look forward to hearing you've completed & with what documentation

Kind Regards Sue & Dave

p.s- we decided as we'd booked the flights we might as well go anyway!!!!!! Also could have something to do with the cold spell here & Sheila & Alan telling us about the wonderful weather out there!!! Can't wait to meet you all. Is anyone going over for Easter???

Hi Colin & Gill,

Just a small correction. Our solicitors did not say that the Licence of First Occupancy will be issued with the deeds, but will be applied for when the signing of the deeds takes place. Whether this means at that same time or sometime soon afterwards, we don't know. They also indicated that we could be on builder's supply of water and electricity for several months after completion, and the utilities would be free of charge to us during that time.

It's interesting that your solicitor says that the switch over will be when the site is completed; I was thinking they might do it in blocks/manzanas (or at least phase by phase). Anyway, let's hope by that time we've all been issued with LFOs.

Regards,

Kevin & Sheila

Hi Kevin and Sheila,

Thanks for the correction my fault  for not reading it properly. Our Solicitor has also confirmed that the water and electricity will be free all the time we are on builders supply. Not sure if that is good or bad. Good that it is free but bad because who knows what can happen.

We also thought that the supplies would be switched after each block/manzana was completed. Perhaps they will. We have just had another email from our Solicitor to say that we will not be able to complete tomorrow, it will be Friday as the builder cannot now make Thursday!!!! Maybe third time lucky.

Regards

Gill and Colin.

Hi all,

Just to let you know we should have signed the deeds yesterday, but the Taray representative was ill and couldn't make the appointment. We are now waiting to hear from our solicitor when the next appointment with the notary will be.

Regards,

Kevin & Sheila

Hi there

Would you like to know the real reason why your appointment was cancelled?

The title numbers have still not been issued and it is not known when they will be.  If you are having a mortgage then banks are unable to register their interest in the property until the title number has been allocated and most will understandably not lend on what is still technically imperfect security.

If you are not having a mortgage then it might be that your solicitor considers it inadvisable to proceed as, without this number, it is not possible legally to identify your specific property. 

In fact, the best thing you can do is ask your solicitor to contact Murcia Land Registry (I am not sure whether it is number 2 or number 7 you need but your solicitor should know) and ask whether the Title numbers have already been issued or, if not, when it is likely to happen.  Once you know this information you will have a better idea of when you are likely to complete.

Best of luck for your next appointment.

Best wishes

HI CostaCalidaexpert,

Can I ask what it is you mean by the title numbers, are they the same as or linked to the LFO? If they are different, which is the more important to have and which is issued first?. I know that you and your family have been living in  this area of Spain for a few years now. Have you had any previous experience of these documents e.g. possible time scales from build to issue or is it , ( as it appears to be ), some sort of waiting game? 

regards

Elaine & Ken

Hi kennym,

I only know what I discovered specifically about the title numbers.  It is specifically the lack of a title number that is preventing me from drawing my mortgage.

What amazes me is that Taray have known for ages that they need these numbers before most people can complete. For a builder of their experience and reputation it is a pretty poor show.  It is simply a case of the registry allocating the next 50 or however many numbers Taray need, but it is taking for ever, if this is the real reason.  How long should it take to issue sequential numbers from a list?  How difficult can it be?

A call to the registry in Murcia should give more clues as to what is happening. 

Hi CostaCalidaexpert,

Thanks for your reply, but sorry I really am no clearer. What exactly is the purpose of the title number? I believed that before you complete you were legally entitled to wait for the Licence of First Occupation ( or habitation licence) to be issued as without it you could possibly encounter problems at a later date. We understand that the LFO is not ready to be issued yet but obviously everyone has to make their own decision as to whether or not they will complete without it.  We are one of those whose lender will not forward funding without it and therefore will not be completing until it is issued. Is this "title number just another name for the LFO/ habitation licence or not. I'm getting really confused now!

Regards

Elaine

Hi Elaine,

the title number is the same as you have for your house in England or Wales (I don't know about Scotland or N Ireland).  It is to your house what your car registration number  is to your car.  It is the official identity of your house.  Without it your house can not be officially identified.  Sorry I know nothing about the LFO Elaine, I just know that this lack of a title number is stopping my completion.

Best wishes,

CCE

To CCE,

Thanks for the information - it looks like you were right. Today's information from our solicitors is that the signing of our deeds did not take place on Wednesday because Taray are still waiting for documents to be returned from the Land Registry. I asked if this was the title number, and was told that the title number was part of the document.

The latest estimate is that the dalay could be another 2 weeks.

Regards,

Kevin & Sheila

I have spoken to the Land Registry myself today.

For anyone who is interested, it is Murcia Number 7 that you need.  The phone number is 968 237 512.  The lady I spoke to, whose name was Arella, confirmed that there is no problem and that all will be resolved before the end of February.  We shall see.

It is a relief to find that there is nothing causing a delay and that this is just down to the very slow speed of Spanish bureaucracy. 

Have a great weekend all.

CCE

I have just found this link:

http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/spanish_property_guide.htm

I would draw your attention specifically to this part of the page:

"Licence of First Occupancy
Once again, when buying from a developer, it is important to check that a licence of first occupancy (licencia de primera occupación) has been granted by the town hall before completing. Utility companies will not supply properties without this licence, which is why you should never complete without when. Though some may try, developers cannot force you to complete without this licence."(courtesy of http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/spanish_property_guide.htm ) 

This would seem to be common sense.

Hi CCE

I heard recently that this license wont be applied for untill the whole site is finished. We are due to complete March 2008 but I think the pool is being done after that which means the license wont be ready untill at least summer 2008. Do you know why Tarray have not applied for it? It seems alot of people on other developments have completed without it and seem to be ok but I also understand what your saying. Will you be waiting untill summer 2008 to complete on yours?as I understand you are moving in full time. Is there anything that can be done to try and get Taray to get the license earlier. If the property were a holiday home I wouldnt mind completeing without it but I guess moving in permantely you need a bit more control on whats going on.

Thanks Tina

I think that, if everybody told Taray they were not prepared to complete without the Licence, then it might make them get a move on and get it sooner rather than later.  If nobody is prepared to complete without it then it will seriously mess up Taray's cashflow so they will have to get it done.

I know from previous experience that being on builder's supply is not the supposed 'freebie' that it might appear to be.  It is actually a real nightmare, with water going off mid-shower, power outages and power surges possibly damaging or even ruining your domestic appliances.