Off to See Maria de Castro

Regarding all of these points you are all failing to recognise that a win counts for nothing, no matter who the case is against, if the successful sentence is not applied, and applied within a reasonable timeframe. ........ just how many are awaiting recompense from successful judgements?? Just how many are ultimately compromised by these ongoing delays, both legal professionals and clients alike? How many more developers, administrators, negligent lawyers, banks etc are you prepared to see manipulate the system to their advantage before you recognise that the system and all our legal cases will be doomed unless something is done about resolving these continnuing injustices through mal administration of a court system that is totally under resourced at best or being manipulated by protectionst self interests at worst ?????????????????

No matter how unpalatable this is, we have to solve this problem first for it to be worthwhile following ANY legal case through.

I feel as though I'm hitting my head against a brick wall at times!!!

Am I the lone voice here?

I have come across many in that situation who have paid EUR5k or EUR6k in legal fees won their case but then developer goes into receivorship/liquidation and then the that buyer having won his case has to join the creditors listing and pay their lawyer another EUR1k a year to monitor/attend creditors meetings when the chances of ever seeing a cent are very remote.

Yet the banks seem to be able to reposses property - deals are made with the administrator who gets paid a vast fee and any decent asset is extracted or sold on to someone in the know and the gravy train goes on.

But will an insecured creditor ever see a penny?

There is no doubt the banks should be held ultimately accountable and made honour the bank guarantee where property was not built or ownership did not for whatever reason pass but Spain being Spain they probably control the courts so that will never happen!

Fully, completely, passionatedly agree with you Faro!

Have I understood this correctly then that the Banks will never be made accountable so long as they have control over the courts?

How can the Banks have control over the courts?

ads - I don't know but in Spain nothing is transparent.

But if you think about it what would happen to the Spanish economy if banks were told to hand back money to all the Brits robbed - it would break the bank/country!

Faro:

It is not that big.

Ads:

No, Banks do not have control over Courts

I don't know...............

The Govt knows the damage all this bad press is doing in that many will now stay away from Spain but at the same time if they encourage the courts to settle these matters and apply fair justice that will cost the county/ecomony also.

The same is true with tax refunds the tax office are refusing to process becuase the govt does not have the money to pay out.

In Malaga the tax office says they have no staff to even register the claims on computer let alone process the claim and then when they do process the claim they will argue the property was sold too cheaply and deny the claim so we file appeals and the game goes on.

This does not happen in other non-third world jurisdictions.

I tell it as it is and what I see and feel every day.

ads

you are certainly not a lone voice, I think many of us treated so badly by the justice system feel much the same way?. Until sentences are passed in a reasonable time, and compensation is given by the courts when the failure to get real justice is so obviously their fault due to delays, and we can feel confident that we can trust the integrity of the court system, because we can feel that some lawyers, banks, developers, administrators etc, are not manipulating the courts, then I feel that the whole justice system is still hopelessly flawed?

I feel that Keith and Maria are working on the basis that if they do everything possible to make sure there are no loopholes in their case, then there is no reason for not getting justice?. In a system I could believe in then that should of course be the case, but history has proved time and time again that however clearly you are in the right in the Spanish justice system, you can very often not trust those we have to put our legal faith in, to do the right thing for the victim, and surely that has to be the minimum requirement before anyone can have confidence in the justice system? 

If the courts continue to refuse compensation for those they have clearly cheated through the delays, or very obvious planning errors etc, then how the hell can we trust they have any real intention of doing the right thing in future cases?. I still feel the crooks are far to often those we should be able to trust the most, and at the moment with no real sign of change from the Spanish government and no intervention from the EU are our last hope?

Thanks Goodstich, Faro, Keith, Maria and all.

Maria I want to ask a genuine question. Are your fellow legal professionals not concerned or aware that these issues are ultimately making people very wary of using lawyers in Spain, let alone the impact these issues are having on the wider picture and the knock on effect to Spain's economy?

Do you not as a professional body of people feel morally obligated to defend the process of justice by speaking out against the lack of resource within the court system and standing firm together as a professional body to resolve this problem? Do you not see yourselves as an influential body of professionals in your own right?

Most of us see you as very proactive, capable and equally committed in terms of striving to improve consumer rights through strong analytical legal argument,. And this is to your great credit. But where we see the major failing of your profession is in the final application of this protection of consumer rights, where it really counts, and that is to ensure that successful judgements are actually applied within reasonable time constraints. Without this very basic protection in place, all your admirable academic efforts (and clients' fees) are potentially wasted.

It's tragic and frustrating for us to witness not only our own financial demise through this era, but also to witness such a potential capable body of people having such little influence or self belief or desire to establish common ground between yourselves, to follow through strong principles and demonstrate your desire to effect change from within, and thereby create a justice system to be proud of..

I'm sorry to have to state this, and I hope that you understand my motives are not to be divisive but merely to state some uncomfortable realities. I want to live in hope that you can come together as a professional body and be the generation that learned from past failures but had the courage and determination to effect change from within, not in purely academic or theoretical terms but to devise an effective workable and practical system of justice.

Is that too much to ask do you think?

 Dearest Ads:

Thank so much for your kind words. I do really appreciate them.

It is not too much to ask Anne. You are completely right.

It happens though that I feel that best impact we, as a lawyers can do at present time is to concentrate on our clients cases, specially those enforcing provision 1.2 of Law 57/68. As always in life, time constrictions demand priorization.

Together with the above, we have and are collaborating, on a free, non paid, voluntary basis to Keith Rule´s petition to be translated into Spanish. Our participation in that project has no commercial interest at all ( we will never see any of the collected data), but the interest of supporting a very comprehensive initiative that is already making an influence. The translation into Spanish will make it accesible to more Spanish victims, lawyers, judges, politicians...

I would say that by now, this is what we need to concentrate in. Uniting forces.

What do you think Ads?

Maria

My feeling is lawyers in Spain do not work well together and do not share information/recources or form action/lobbying groups etc.

If you look at non Spanish law societies there are many sub-groups and committees and members meet on a regular basis to discuss. Sometimes points are also discussed on networks like linkedin. If this does exist in Spain then I am not aware of it. Maybe it does?

But a big problem you face in Spain is how the country is carved up. I believe there are over 80 different colegio de abogados and little in the way of communication between them and the various members of each colegio.

We also see this problem repeated between central and local government and every now and then to appease the EU,  central government will say we are very much aware of this/that problem but this problem is at local/regional government and of course our hands are tied.

I have seen this action group/lobbying approach work well in UK and in other jurisdictions particularly where lobbying is required.

I have also seen multinational companies (direct competitors of each other in the consumer market place!) form coallitions and even share information or pool costs to fight a common enemy.

Ads - you do great work in trying to get the message across but the question is are you preaching to the already converted?

Ads - you are not a lone voice.  The Petition is also demanding a change in the Judicial System.  The Petition is, amongst others, addressed to:

Excelentísimo Señor Francisco Caamaño Dominguez
Ministro de Justicia del Gobierno de España

Excelentísimo Señor Don Carlos Dívar Blanco
Presidente el Tribunal Supremo y
Presidente del Consejo General del Poder Judicial

Excelentísimo Señor Don Carlos Carnicer Díez
Presidente del Consejo General de la Abogacía Española

Excelentísimo Señora María Ángeles Alcalá Díaz
Directora General de los Registros y Notariado

Mr Roberto Barone
President of the Council of the Notariats of the European Union

Mr Charles Plant
Chairman of the Solicitors Regulation Authority, Redditch, UK

Mr Des Hudson
Chief Executive of the Law Society, London, UK

I am sure that because our Petition is a web-based Petition it has already been read by many influencial people, including some of those to whom it is addressed.  We have not kept the demands of the petition secret - everything has been openly displayed on the website since day one.  Of course the full text and accompanying data will be sent to those to whom it is addressed, but in the meantime they have had the chance to read the demands and possibly act upon some of them.

But change takes time and we must continue with our 'Pincer Movement' - attack on all fronts - including continuing and moving forward with legal action according to LEY 57/68.

As María has said below - she and her team are currently translating the Petition website into Spanish - on a totally unpaid and voluntary basis and for absolutely no commercial gain.  This is a vital job as we must present the Petition in Spanish and English.  I think this shows that María and her team are committed to doing all they can to demand a change in the system.  By having the Spanish text available on the website it will make it accessible to Spanish victims and to more officials within the Spanish authorities.  We hope to have this job completed within the next couple of weeks.

However, our Finca Parcs Action Group and Lawyers representing other individuals and groups must also continue with legal action according to LEY 57/68.  The more cases of this type that reach the courts then a greater number of decisions will go in favour of the consumer.  As this happens then the authorities will have to take notice.

The recent comments by Sra Beatriz Corredor regarding the Spanish Government holding road shows to promote the Spanish property market is in a strange kind of way good for all of us victims.  They must understand that we will not just sit calmly and let them ignore the victims of years of corruption while they go on promoting what they call a transparent system.  This is an ideal opportunity for us to relaunch our Petition (with the Spanish version) and make our voices heard.  

Maybe we can attend the Road Shows and provide prospective purchasers with our experience of 'The Real Spain'!!

Kind regards

Keith 

Dear All,

given Faro's frank assessment of the chances of legal action being successful in Spain, plus the disagreement between Maria and Techno also Maria and Mr Flores, you will not be surprised that I shall not be risking it.

No doubt Goodstitch is wishing this assessment had been available earlier before he was persuaded that such action in Spain is similar to the UK.

As he points out, it is an appalling situation for all the reasons Faro has so kindly elaborated on plus his own experiences.

There is also the point raised in the newsletter that if the impossible happened and a successful action was brought against a Spanish lawyer then any claim on indemnity insurance would be limited to 10k euros.

Clearly whatever success is achieved by Keith, Ads and all it is not going to happen in my lifetime, but the very best of good luck anyway.

Regards

Norman

Dear Maria,

Thank you for your voluntary work relating to the Spanish translation of the Bank Guarantee petition. It will be an essential pre-requisite for those Spanish victims who have been equally affected, and as you rightly say, it will make the petition far more accessible for Spanish lawyers, judges politicians etc. So many thanks.

You queried how I felt about "uniting forces". Well I have been advocating this for a long time now and I completely agree that it is essential for all victims of the Bank Guarantee abuse to stand united together.

I have just placed an important query on the Bank Guarantee Petition thread relating to obstructive behaviour by developers and/or lawyers when requesting the Bank details where monies were originally deposited, and I would be really grateful if you could advise on the issues raised.

Faro,

You observed about preaching to the already converted! Well yes I take your point, but then I would ask of you and others in similar positions of experience, to use our evidence/postings/experiences/ petitions etc and network them to those who you feel are in need of converting........ I'm sure that many of us would be very grateful for you to spread the word on our behalf!

Keith,

We could do with knowing when and where these roadshows are going to be held!!

Thank you for all your ongoing commitment to the BG cause and I trust that you will give equal attention to the issues relating to delays, as this ultimately will impact on any success that you achieve. I'm sure that everyone wishes you and your legal team all the best in your group action, which will undoubtably act as a blue print for others to follow suit. Your advice and experience is proving invaluable to many of us caught up in this injustice.

Goodstich

I so feel for you in your horrendous circumstance where all options have been thwarted every step of the way, and I'm sure there will be many who will be following and supporting your claim for the EU and our own government to be far more pro-active in tackling the issues that you have been exposed to. I hope to write again to the MEP's with regard to all of these issues, now that we have more knowledge at our disposal, and I would encourage all others to do likewise. We should not sit back and think that because we have written once that is enough. We should be keeping them updated of ongoing circumstances/abuses that we are being subjected to, and hopefully we will do the same with our evidence supplied to Keith.

Here is a great tool to assist http://www.writetothem.com/