Off to See Maria de Castro

Flight is booked and hotel booked so setting off on Monday morning for a meeting with Maria de Castro to discuss making our claim against the banks for our 'lost' deposits.

I have seen a lot of the recent postings on this subject and there are quite clearly two camps of believers and non-believers when it comes to NOT having a bank guarantee.

However, when I think of how all these developments have been built with people's deposit money that was paid into an account (OK maybe not even a special account) and then used by the bank to fund a building programme...it seems crazy to me to think the banks can hide behind the developers and get away with it...afterall the properties will belong to the banks anyway due to the large developers mortgages that will be on most properties that have been built.

So I certainly think this makes it worth fighting for.

For our failed development with 'Inroal' from Roquetas de Mar we have a group of people who have decided to get together and go as an Action Group. If you can do this then it makes it much better on the up front legal fees and puts it within reach of most people then. However, some people still don't seem to want to join the legal fight when it comes to the point of putting the chips down!  Still, we have got a group going ahead now and a few more to join soon. So the journey begins here!

KoS999

Welcome to the frontier a country where there are no laws.

But good luck and keep us posted how you get on.

This will be your first step in a journey of 1000 steps and you will have to walk them all at least once!

Congratulations on your decision to fight for your rights and my very best wishes to you all.

Taking the decision to build a case against the banks,developers or lawyers is a big step, and trusting another lawyer is also a nerve wracking experience.

Maria and her team have been handling our case for two and a half years now (justice in Spain is slow) and I have every confidence they will do their utmost   to obtain justice on our behalf. It will just take time. 

Very Good Luck to your group,

the more the better must be the case, but you need the money and the time.

sounds like too many steps for this old codger.

Regards

Norman

KoS999

I really wish you all the best with this. It would be a big step forward to see anyone without a BG getting real justice, as in money back in their bank account in a reasonable time frame, and with reasonable lawyer fees to make it all worthwhile?. There will be many of us waiting to see how it all goes for you. Good luck and well done for sticking with it. If we don't, the crooks have won, and that includes the whole Spanish justice system.

Goodstich

The Spanish legal system is doing quite well out of it.

You don't have to be a mathematician to work out the fees some firms are earning chasing BG, collapsed developers etc.

Faro

yes, can't argue with that!.

I really meant the courts with regards to delays and lack of common sense when dealing with known crooked agents/developers/lawyers/banks/councils etc etc. 

 Faro!  

There are many dencet lawyers, helping people and making their lifes, with lots of expenses and staff to pay too... 

In our LawFirm, we are " surviving" as even when cases are won in a very high percentage, then the enforcement of the decissions and payment of final fees do not arrive till the money is back at the clients´account... and that takes much, much, much effort, work, study, re-study, direction, re-direction....coordination...

I invite you to show you our Bank accounts anytime... you will be very surprised ! 

María

I understand exactly the position that many decent Lawyers find themselves in.  The delays in the judicial process not only affects the purchaser but also the Lawyer because as you say the main part of the fee is not payable until the end of the case.

For our Finca Parcs Action Group over the past 4 years and especially in the last 2 years since we formed the larger group of 63 - the hours, days, weeks and months that I have spent on a voluntary basis on this case are immense.

To negotiate a reduced legal fee for each group member I have on a voluntary basis been gathering evidence, preparing the 650 page dossier, coordinating the group, gathering all the proof of deposit payment evidence for each member of the group to prove their funds went into the CAM accounts, managing the groups provision of funds payments, gathering original documents from all the group members, taking trips to the Costa Blanca area to have meetings with the developer, bank and other associated parties etc etc.......

It has taken one year to get all the group members to pay the Provision of Funds payments and to complete the POA's.  It is frustrating how long it all takes.

Anyway we are nearly there now and our comprehensive Lawsuit is virtually ready.

But I know that if all the work I have done had been carried out by the Law Firm then the cost in staff time would have been huge.  It would have been difficult for the Law Firm to do all that work within the standard budget costs, let alone with a group discount.

So I understand, first hand and from my own experience, exactly the huge amount of effort, work, study, re-study, direction, re-direction and coordination that is needed especially in these complex and time-consuming LEY 57/68 Bank Guarantee cases.

So the speeding up and transparency of the court system will be beneficial not only to the purchasers but also to the Lawyers who are investing a lot of time and staff costs in these very complex cases.

Kind regards

Keith 

Oh yes Keith... you know very well what this is all about! Very, very well.

Cheers!

Maria

Maria and Keith, many comprehend the realities but it leaves us all oh so vulnerable.

It is in everyone's interests therefore that top of the agenda should be pushing and pushing the powers that be for a solution to these crippling delays within the justice administration system. There is no point gaining successes only to have to sit back and wait and wait indefinitely for recompense. Fast tracking is essential for those who have been waiting years for resolutions following their successful case wins. Goodstich is right to compare this to a rights issue...........

Why do you suppose that these cases are not being resolved? Might it be that it is not in the interests of the Spanish government to remedy this situation as taxes will have to be repaid as part of the remuneration? Might it be that the Banks and developers are depending on these delays to "see them through" the recession. Might it be that everyone in power is turning a blind eye to the obvious abuse that is occurring here? Might it be that we (good lawyers and clients alike) need to take a much more co-ordinated stance and that lawyers should demonstrate a willingness to establish their own petition and take it to the highest level, or would your firm (and others) be willing to assist us all and bring this to the attention of our own UK government and the EU, so that we are not only speaking from innocent purchasers' perspective but from a legal perspective also.

Someone somwhere within the Spanish legal profession surely has to stand up and prove the case that we are all suffering the consequences of an ineffective, unjust and not to put too fine a point on it, unaccountable system of justice.

PLEASE no more rhetoric. We need support here..........

Dear All,

my one argument with Keith's view is that of complexity.

how can a ten second consideration of for example, Goodstitch's case be complex?

it could not have been more straightforward.

lawyers introduce complexity for the resons that Faro has pointed out.

If you read Michael Joseph's two books you will understand.

Maria says all that is promised must by law be provided  -  Techno and his legal advice disagree.

Maria says the Bank guarantee is cast iron  -  Mr Flores says it is doomed to failure.

Hows that for complexity?

Regards

Norman

Dear Anne:

I thik that Keith, as being an victim of this all is the rightest person to promote the petition as he is doing.

Let´s listen to what he says... maybe a translation into Spanish and a new offer to the press..... but that is all by the generousity of people like him who are contributing freely to the cause.

Best regards,

Maria

María - thank you for your invaluable help with the Spanish translation of the Petition questions & text. 

Hopefully within the next couple of weeks we will have the petition available on the website for the Spanish speaking citizens who have also been caught up in the Bank Guarantee scandal.

Norman - what a fantastic world it would be if every case only needed a 10 second consideration........
I understand what you say and it is true a few cases will be very clear cut and will not require so much work.  But the vast majority of the cases are a little more complicated and need to be studied in great detail.  Also evidence needs to be gathered and a strong Lawsuit needs to be compiled.

We all know how 'difficult' the Spanish court system is and the 'unexplainable' decisions some Judges arrive at.  So the most important part of any case is the research, study, evidence gathering and preparation of the most comprehensive and powerful Lawsuit.  Judges are very good at throwing a case out based on a ridiculous 'technicality' - so all loopholes, wherever possible, must be closed.

Anne - one thing we have to remember about the courts in Spain is that they are not only dealing with Bank Guarantee and Property related issues.  The courts are full of hundreds of thousands of other cases.  There are huge delays in the court system.  Bank Guarantee claims do not get priority.  There are not enough courts or Judges to deal with all the cases in a reasonable amount of time.  That is why as part of the Petition we are demanding that Fast Track Specialised Courts be established to deal specifically with Bank Guarantee cases.

Kind regards

Keith

maria

much as I admire the fantastic job Keith's doing, and of course your input also, I have to question the whole process?. As you and Keith have clearly stated, the work and time taken to bring the case to this point would not be a viable proposition for the majority of those cheated, so where does that leave the rest of us?  I would say that the system is designed to make 'real justice' as in money back in our account, all but impossible for most individuals?.  Surely that is what needs changing, rather than accepting the system the way it is, which is as good as useless to all apart from those exceptional people like Keith?

Is this really a step forward with regards to justice even if the case is won?, or would it still be a victory for injustice because the amount of work and money  required to get this far is clearly unnacceptable and impossible for the vast majority of those wronged?

I know there's no easy answer, but I still feel that Spanish lawyers are accepting the injustice simply by complying with the system that renders any chance of real justice out of reach for the vast majority.  It's well over due time that everyone stood together in rejecting the current farce that is the Spanish justice system, but it wont happen if the 'experts' in law are not willing to go hand in hand with all of us cheated , by protest or whatever means to tell those who can make change that the current system is simply wrong and must be changed now!!

We have already won many cases based on law 57/68 where a Bank Guarantee existed and the Bank did not wanted to honour it alleguing different reasons such as expiration, photocopy or wanted to pay partial amounts or avoid the payment of interests.

Now  we are fighting for another good number of clients which did not have Bank Guarantees

I honestly and humbly do not think that this is just accepting things as they are without further battle!

In principle I think we all agree Maria, but these cases can be expensive, and often unrewarding. It is not an easy decision to chase money lost with money still to be earnt.

Goodstitch

Our Finca Parcs case involved a huge amount of preparation work because we are a large group and many of the group members had paid their deposits to different lawyers, agents etc.  Tracing all these payments to the developers bank account was and still is a massive task. 

Also I did a lot of detective work and gathered a huge amount of evidence against the bank & developer.  I wanted to make the case as strong as possible.

Group action against the Bank is only really viable where the whole group are in exactly the same situation - i.e. having paid direct to the developers bank account or where the deposit payments can be traced to that account.  Also each group would need to have a leader/coordinator who is willing to give up a lot of their time on a voluntary basis.

For an individual action the workload relating to tracing the payments would be much less time consuming as you would be tracing just one persons payments.  Of course there is still the job of collecting vital evidence against the bank & developer for the Lawsuit.

Together with María I have learnt a huge amount over the past 2 years about what is required to file a Lawsuit against the Bank for action according to LEY 57/68.  We now have a lot of experience at tracing the various deposit payments to the developers bank account.  Also our Lawsuit is very comprehensive and I am sure that the process we have followed will act as the 'blueprint' for other similar cases.

Therefore I think that as the Lawyers gain experience in these type of cases things will get easier and more cost effective.

Advances are being made and the opinions of various Lawyers and Judges are changing in favour of the consumer.  I am the first to admit that it is a slow process but 2 years ago it was virtually impossible to find a Lawyer who agreed with action against the Banks according to LEY 57/68.  Now there are a number of Lawyers willing to take this course of action.  And....there is the Cantabria Appeal Court Case Law, covered in other threads on EOS, which is very significant to all those with or without Bank Guarantees.

With regards to the Spanish Justice System - I think we all agree that there are major problems that need to be addressed.  The biggest problems is the delays.

It is clear that in addition to all the other cases the courts are struggling to deal with the level of negligence and corruption that has taken place in the property sector.

I know these are old figures and I am sure the current figures will probably be even worse but.........

In 2008 there were just over 9 million cases filed in the courts and on 31 December 2008 nearly 2.8 million or 30% of these cases were still pending.  In fact in a report around that time the Wolters Kluwer Foundation reported that 6 out of 10 Spanish citizens considered the legal system to be antiquated, 7 out of 10 considered that court proceedings are slow and sentences not executed with efficiency, 49% did not think the courts were impartial and 47% considered that the justice functions were ‘bad or very bad’.

Kind regards

Keith 

Keith

thanks for your reply and I take your point about the amount of work required for a group action verses a single case. Will it be a blueprint?, or will the courts just be glad that very few will have the time or money to present their case so thoroughly?

As for the delays, well we must keep sight of the fact that most delays are due to lack of regulation and corruption which the government/courts allowed for so long anyway, so while the numbers can't be denied, it's up to the government to compensate those who won their cases but still lost everthing due to delays allowing the crooks to go bust, same with the planning issues and the many other cases of injustice that the government at various levels are responsible for.

Of course I really hope that things are changing, but I see very little evidence that anything is being done to compensate those so badly wronged, and I doubt much confidence will return until there are signs that those responsible are listening and taking action without the victims having a spend another small fortune and years more just trying to get back what is rightfully theirs.

You certainly deserve real justice, and I'm sure everyone wishes you all the very best for trying so hard to get  justice for all those represented and hopefully many more if your action does start the ball rolling?

also we need to see the courts lifting the veil of incorporation and seeing just where all the money went and then going after individuals or company directors/administrators.

anyone think that's likely?