How many in the same boat?????

Dear Faro,

I think we are agreed that the poster's boat is not one we would want to be in ourselves, but I believe very many are. Many more than have so far come forward.

the problem could get worse if the economic climate does not improve.

Regards

Norman

 Faro:

I agree with you that cases without Bank Guarantees, just against developers are not worth it any more, as a ageneral rule ( there are some exceptions) in Spain. But the contract cancellation action against the developer is, in our opinion necessary for the success of the action based on 1.2 of Law 57/68.

Two at the same time, for the same fee, no annual charges just an initial provision of funds and a further fund support is the Bank appealed after a case won seems to us a very balanced and reasonable deal between lawyer-client.

I just feel very sorry for people caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

On one hand they have been robbed of their life savings and they do deserve justice but then they have to dig deep and spend money they have not now get as circumstances have changed in UK (loss of job etc) to enter an arena with great unknowns and then endure years of misery and heart break.

The better cases (bank guarantees/sound developers etc) have gone through and many of those have got back money but others with no bank guarantees and collapsed developers are on very dodgy ground.

But as I say only time will tell.

But sometimes for the sake of health drawing a line under the loss and moving on is the best alternative and that applies to any business situation rather than throwing good money after bad money. But that's a very difficult decision.

I admire the work of many on this front who keep raising the matter and trying to get people in high places to listen but maybe at best all we can hope is that in the future people will have more protection and business will be done differently. It is most unlikely the Spanish government and the banks will go back and fix the past and return all those deposits.

Just to clarify my situation.

I paid my current lawyer one upfront fee + a fee to get on the creditor list. I have not been asked to pay any more at any stage so I don't feel I was conned by my lawyer. My only gripe with my current lawyer is that of the court delay. I was concerned all through the delay that Aifos would go under, but despite voicing my concern to my lawyer several times, he insisted it was not within his power to speed up the hearing, due to the huge backlog of cases. That delay of course rendered our court win useless, with the possible exception of getting crumbs as a creditor one day perhaps??.  Could my lawyer have insisted on my case being heard sooner as it was public knowledge to all at the time we were granted the court embargo, that Aifos's situation was fragile to put it mildly?. I don't know for sure either way if our lawyer could have bought our case forward or not?

My previous UK and Spanish lawyers were in cahoots with the uk agent OVP, long gone bust and the subject of many scams covered in other threads.  Had the agent or my first two lawyers had an ounce of integrity, then I would have at least now have a BG to claim on.

I agree with Faro and Norman with regards to continuing to fund a hopeless cause, but that said, I won't give up on the idea of getting justice. I won my case and want the money the court agreed I should have. Had the court not delayed my case then in theory at least , I would have been able to get my money from Aifos, or actioned the embargo the courts also granted us nearly two years before the hearing. For me, continuing to push for justice in any way I can is my preffered way, but I realise not for everyone and that's ok, I get that. I have still 'moved on' as well, though obviously without my life savings which i'm not giving up on. My case for real justice from the courts is still as strong as it ever was.

As for the issue of being better off walking away having lost a deposit, or completing and having all the issues of funding and servicing a property in the current financial freefall, well we would need a crystal ball for that one?.  I don't think there's an answer to suit all?.  What I would say though is that being robbed of your life savings by not only unregulated crooks, but by those we have to trust in for justice is sickening, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Dear All,

the problem in employing lawyers is that they are very expensive, the hourly rates for simple clerical work is horrendous. It is in effect a monstrous scam on the public, simple admin is hidden under a cloak of public unfamiliarity, especially conjured up by the system they have devised. All such work should be assisted by competent public staff so that lawyers are unnecessary.

there is currently no transparency, it is corrupted by conjured feigned complexity.

whatever Goodstitch paid for his action the question remains was he best advised to attempt it?????

the clear answer seems to be not at this time within this system.

as to the two scenarios, that is simple economics with the most obvious answer as detailed by the original post.

it is not a subject for question, it is just the two balance sheets being grossly different as anyone, especially a businessman should understand.

those that completed on grossly overvalued property, with fraudulent inflated valuations are now in serious negative equity with unmanageable expenses, doomed to failure in effect.

Very sad but unavoidable.

Regards

Norman

Norman,

To puts things in perspective there are four main categories of buyers.  Not a complete list but it seems the more common.  There many more scenarios - like a decision tree.  But lets keep it simple.

1. Paid Deposit - Could not complete because builder bust / property incomplete etc.

2. Paid Deposit - Decided not to complete because of market crash.

3. Completed - Bought as Hoilday Home.

4. Completed - Bought to resell.

Only those in category three, who chose to complete (and  assuming they have no need for a fire sale ) might be considered satisfied.  I put myself in that category.  BUT if I had deferred my purchase until now I could have saved myself  100,000 Euro for a 2/2 apartment.  Having had 10 holiday there,  one can reason an opportunity cost of 10,000 Euros for each of those holidays.  If I thought about it too much I would be sick as a parrot but hey - 10 of the best, most peaceful relaxing holidays of my life - and we only live once.  If I had to sell today I'd be out of pocket by maybe 120,000 Euro's excluding the running costs.

Every category had lost one way or another.

If  I had walked away and forgone my deposit   I could purchase  a similar property today and be Euro 50,000 better off net (allowing for the lost deposit).  So maybe I should have walked away in 2007?  But then again even I didn't expect the crash to be so significant - yes I was expecting a crash but only by say 15% of so.

You, I read, are category one.  You had no choice - you lost your deposit.   That's probably worse than category 2.  At least those guys get to decide.  Many of these category 1 people feel cheated.  They thought their deposits were safe.  It seems juctice is slow and ineffective.   But you know what  if I were in that category I still buy an apartment today.   And I'd be Euro 50k to the good.

It's the guys in Category 4  who are in the worst case.  They can't see at a profit.  If they geared with a 60% mortgage that are making signifcant losses selling now.  They will not yield much if any rent and they  are having to stump up running costs.  For those who bought multiple units - they are working hard trying to find anyone to rent the place.

And what about those who fell for the agents pitch about putting a deposit on two or more off plan  and then flipping the extra propertie(s) using the 'profit' to fund the one they would complete on?    Some people lost 2 or 3 deposits !  That's really painful.

So in a way, almost everybody lost. 

But thinking positively -

1) some who completed had great holidays.

2) those who lost their deposit - only lost their deposit.  Today there are great bargains to be had with discounts far larger than the value of the lost deposit.  So admire the silver lining in the cloud.    Of course that's not to say that the market has reached bottom.  Maybe it will take another two years to bottom out in real terms.  So maybe start saving now and follow the wisdom below - don't buy off plan and find a good reliable lawyer.

I have to agree with everything that's been said, regarding lost deposits and new purchases. My original Solicitor ( Aldea Advisors ) handed over 54,000 euros to Huma Indelo without first checking on bank guarentees. My Solicitor  now no longer exists, and the builder although still trading says there is no money left. By checking on forums such as EoS I realised that yes i can win a case aginst the builder for breach of contract, but unless they have assets nobody knows about, then there is still no money. I can fight and fight my way through the courts, and pay my new Solicitor lots of money, but there will never be a light at the end of the tunnel. I still wanted to live in Spain, so I decided to look for what I believed was a bargain. i found that bargain in the form of a 3 bed villa 1300 sq ft with it's own 8' x 4' pool for 120,000 euros. When I look back at what I would have had, which was a 2 bed 800 sq ft and no pool at 160,000 euros, then I feel that sometimes things are meant to happen. Please don't get me wrong, I love my place to bits, but I would still after all this time ( 5 years ) like to inflict serious damage to the directors of Huma Indelo.

Good luck to all those who are still in the position I was once in, never forget, never forgive, but eventually you will realise it's time to move on

Seashells - I am forever telling people they would be better to draw a line under what happened and move on. But most because of the emotion involved will not. But you have and now you can enjoy your place in the sun which I guess is what you always wanted.

I believe many are throwing good money after bad money for the very reasons you have outlined.

Yes - these people deserve justice but they will never get that in Spain.

Dear All,

I cannot thank you enough for posting and telling it like it is.

I believe that there is an enormouse band of people out there who are the silent majority who will benefit from these posts, so keep posting your stories.

I am also aware that the "happies" will complain of the constant carping on the "chit chat" forum, but how else to keep warning other innocents?

My own position does not quite fit Pete's list as I did not complete on two counts, or perhaps it is three or more;

(a) the property did not and would never pass survey, the construction standards were too low and the only luxury was for midgets.

(b) it was not a frontline golf holiday complex at all - zero facilities.

(c) it was just a residential open urbanisation - rather like an open council estate in the UK.

(d) there was no guaranteed non-status low cost mortgage facility already in place for every buyer.

As to moving on, that would be great if funds paid were in some way credited back, unlike Goodstitch my life savings were just that and not some spare money a young man had available.

The mortgage problem would some how have to be overcome.

Keep the message strong.

Regards

Norman

Hi all especially Norman,

I do enjoy reading your posts the most.  I know that you really are a wind up merchant and you say things to stirr things up but you always get loads of reponses

.  Any how totally agree with you so you can add me to your list.  All being well I will complete on a better property next week.  I still wish I never lost my depoist but I have'nt mastered the CRYSTAL BALL yet.

Monica

"Yes - these people deserve justice but they will never get that in Spain." stated by Faro.

You are all ignoring the fact Spanish law was specifically introduced to protect the consumer of off-plan purchase (i.e. law57/68) and that it has been negligently abused or ignored by legal professionals, developers and Banks. The non-application of this law has to be challenged otherwise any laws that are introduced to provide consumer protection in Spain could never be relied upon in the future......... 

 If you are prepared to ignore this horrendous situation then it may be argued that you are equally complicit by allowing the Spanish justice system to continue unregulated.

Look to what the banks are doing to protect their position and the way they are endeavouring to recoup monies via European Enforcement Orders and the total hypocrisy, as they choose not to honour their own responsibilities within Spain as per a Spanish law to protect the consumer, and you will see how important it is that those who are courageous enough (both from a legal and client perspective) to challenge this corruption and negligency at source, is absolutely essential for any future civilised society. This is about looking to the wider picture that benefits ALL, not just about individual cases.

To walk away is sadly falling into the hands of those in whose interests it is to perpetuate the status quo, those who have little accountability or conscience to follow the laws of the land. Only when you are in a similar position will you understand the necessity to be protected by a civilised justice system. It is like anything in life, are you prepared to hide away in the hope that it will never happen to you, or are you prepared to look to the wider picture and see the benefits of gaining a justice system that is regulated and effective to the benefit of all? I might even suggest that a fighting fund should be established to assist those endeavouring to ensure justice prevails in the longer term, but just how many would be willing to contribute!

Sorry for the lecture but it isn't as simple as you suggest I'm afraid. This is a much wider issue than individual cases and those fighting for justice do so to everyone's advantage in the longer term.

Dear All,

yes, of course.

the frustration of impotency is debilitating.

we had it with Vicki and her children that were suffering, yet nothing could be done and she would not accept charity or even a loan offered by Sue.

we still have it with the Priors and many more.

we need proper consumer courts or at least courts where there is a strong presumption in favour of the consumer against the organisation including the government itself.

staffed by competent staff who can direct and give advice without fear that the legal's union will object.

never mind human rights for terrorists and gaolbirds we need rights for citizens without lawyers involved.

a fighting fund to build on the "blueprint" is also a good idea.

Regards

Norman

ads said

''This is a much wider issue than individual cases and those fighting for justice do so to everyone's advantage in the longer term.''

How very true. If people decide for whatever reason that the fight for justice is not worth the risk then the crooks at all levels have won and will anything change?. Having said that, everyones situation is different, and we have to respect limitations and risk factors from a financial or state of mind position.

Changes just have to be made so that the laws in place are worth the paper they are written on. The best lawyers still have to work within the current boundries, and what faith can anyone have that they will get a fair result in the current system? There's enough horror stories on this site alone with the price crash, lack of regulation, corruption etc. Market forces are just a smoke screen, this was going to happen because of the failure of the system to respond long ago.

Anyone looking to buy in Spain now will very soon find the evidence to support what we are saying, but what will it take before those who can make the very obvious changes needed, see the light? Surely it's in their interest to inspire confidence in law and justice as they are such important aspects when buying property?.

Dear All,

am I just a misunderstanding, just an "image problem"????????????.

I sometimes despair of words and language.

“It is true that there has been... an image problem. Now we want to reassure the British, and all foreigners, that we are doing everything possible to put the details clearly on the table.”

I am convinced that I have been defrauded, robbed and cheated by crooks including lawyers.

but if you put the right politician's spin on it................there may have been some lack of transparency.

Once she has put a few details right, all will be well.

You can only conclude that she must know the facts, she must know the truth and her spin is plain lies, intent on more deception.

Does that sound like any real change.

Does that dash your hopes?????????

Regards

Norman

Normansands - The Spanish housing secretary  speaks of making things better for buyers buying now but not putting right the problems of the past. Her job is to go out and bring back buyers and bring money into the country. Her job is NOT to give back money the country/banks already have/taken. She is working with the banks on this and they need to get the cash in - NOT GIVE IT AWAY!!!!!

How much more proof do people need to realise the Government and Banks are working on this together. All they have to do is get the Government spin machines into gear. Highlight the great bargains to be had. Acknowledge there has been one or two (minor) problems in the past but that's all behind us now. Pour the cava and raise the glasses!

But as regards all these pending cases surely what needs to be done is to get a couple of test cases through and then fight those onto higher courts but not at the cost of one individual. Can one individual sitting up north somewhere having lost all his life savings now be expected to re-mortgage his UK house to take on a whole legal system in his quest for justice?

Faro

I'm not conviced that in the current system even test cases are worthwhile?  The injustice through the courts own delays for instance or banks failure to provide BG's is something that I feel must be tackled in a new way?. Between the victims and the courts, there needs to be a body of common sense that can see the very obvious failures of the justice system or banks and approach the whole situation from the point of view that the case is not a level playing field and the system has already failed the victim. The case should simply be about levels and speed of  real compensation, not about having to prove something that's so bloody obvious anyway!!  I feel like saying to people that until there is a system can be relied on for integrity and common sense then what is the point of taking your case through the courts?, but then what is the alternative?.

What is needed is a compensation fund taken from Spain's EU contribution to ensure that all those with outstanding cases will be catered for.......... this was advocated way back, within the Auken report. People should be shouting from the rooftops to query why this has not been adhered to, and to query why the Auken report has been scuppered on a technicality. It should be re-introduced, but I'm in ignorant bliss on this I'm afraid. Perhaps Suzanne would know more on that score?

And in the interim, unless the government fast tracks cases through the legal system, then everyone needs to bring attention to any collusion between banks and government (hard evidence?) and scupper any attempts to divert attention away from this obvious unpalatable reality, or any attempt to downplay the magnitude of this problem to potential purchasers by highlighting this at every possible opportunity.

A fighting fund is probably required to assist the test cases through.