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Hi Ruth, its been a while since i have updated myself on eye on spain. Could you please explain why you would want to even further halt sales of property in Spain? Surely is what we want as a community and as a strong european neighbour, is a stron Spain. Spain needs to start selling properties again in order to try an get itself out of the fiscal mess its in and to try and bring back employment and tourism. If you try and stop the sales what will you achieve? The issues of bank guarantees is an old one now. Those that had a wise head and bought property through a reputable Lawyer and had a bank guarantee have had and can get all their money back, even if the guarantee is out of date. Those that opted for a back hander deposit against 'discounted property prices' and the ones that wanted to save money by not using a Lawyer, are the ones now that are suffering the most.
Rather than trying to prevent sales of homes in Spain, wouldnt our time and energy be better spent trying to introduce new Laws that made it a legal obligation to use a Lawyer in a property transaction?
I know as a property owner in Murcia, Vera and Mazaron that I would like to see the market recover to where it was some 2 years ago. I say lets make every effort to increase sales in Spain!
Phillip
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Arbitare
With respect what we want is a Spain that respects the rights of consumers and provides adequate protection from abuse.
Without adequate consumer protection backed up by an effective justice system in place to ensure accountability, you will always remain at risk in Spain.
It's in everyone's interests therefore to strive for this basic provision before encouraging others to be exposed to this continuing level of risk and abuse.
Only when the Spanish Government demonstrate their intentions to resolve the many ongoing injustices by actions and not words, as proof of an effective system of justice, will it be realistic to state that it is safe to buy in Spain I'm afraid.
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Evening Ruth, I take it that you dont see the culpability of those people that chose to purchase without using a lawyer because they were attracted to the extra discounts offered by "corrupt" builders? If you were buying a house in the Uk would you hand over cash without due care in making sure the builder had planning permission and building regs? Would you first employ a lawyer or would you simply flash the cash? There are laws in place in Spain justbas there are in the Uk. If you choose not to follow the law then who is to blame when fingers are burnt? In many of the people I have spoken to and read about, the simple fact is that they are looking for somebody to blame for their greed and often stupidity. Perhaps the first law the Spanish need to pass is to insist that us Brits take our brains with us when we go to Spain?! I will not suggest that everyone finds themselves in the same boat. There are those that do their best to minimise potential problems when purchasing homes abroad and still get caught. There are always bent builders and sometimes there is poor advise. A good bi lingual lawyer must be a good place to start? Yes? Spain and it's justice system is not that of a third world country. We don't understand it as we understand ours because we are not Spanish and in most cases we aren't lawyers. For example the chap sat next to me on a flight to Murcia last year, gripping his book...."me and the law in Spain" and him telling me that despite no house being built in the last 5 years, the builder had promised him that the "house" was worth far more than what he had paid! Why don't you suggest an alternative to trying to prevent economic growth in Spain....why not suggest that firstly us Brits should respect the law in Spain. Secondly to try and conform to those laws. I feel huge empathy for those that have been cheated out of their money. Do I feel empathy towards greed and stupidity? That's a few rungs down the ladder. Insist on legal representation. Embrace Spain for the amazing country it is and try our damnedest to get Spain back to where it was a few years ago......with value in the properties we have bought.
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Please examine the detail of this situation by reading the petition www.bankguaranteesinspain.com and Ruth's petitioners' circumstances. There is much ignorance regarding the abuses that are occuring in Spain relating to achieving justice and recompense, even when SUCCESSFUL cases have been won against developers in breach of contract, just as one example, and to suggest that isolated cases as you describe is the norm is a myth perpetuated by those who have an alternative agenda, or by those who are unaware of the realities associated with the ongoing situation.
The realities of purchasing property in Spain however have sadly proved exceptionally stark for many UK (and EU) citizens, innocent purchasers, as they have been subjected to all manner of abusive activity in Spain, now deemed illegal:
· Developers significantly breaching contracts and /or building developments that fell far short of the required standards of
workmanship or failed to meet specification as per the contract.
· Agents in league with developers, providing false promises through their marketing literature (this literature is deemed part of the contract).
· Lawyers failure to demonstrate due diligence, providing contracts with abusive clauses.
· Lawyers developers and banks failure to deliver legal Bank Guarantees and contract details as per Law 57/68, to provide consumer protection for offplan purchase. (for further details please see the petition www.bankguaranteesinspain.com)
· Lack of supervision and control of the Spanish banks to ensure Law 57/68 was adhered to.
· Lawyers in league with developers placing undue stress on clients to complete without LFO’s in place, under threat of contract cancellation.
As if that wasn’t enough, when purchasers subsequently fought for their legal rights, many have been further exposed to abusive practice.
· Significant court delays, with no timescale constraints in place to ensure that successful judgements were implemented in a reasonable timeframe..
· Developers asset stripping prior to declaring insolvency.
· Justice departments failure to respond adequately to complaints.
· Inconsistent legal judgements.
· Negligent Lawyers obstructing the course of justice by failing to identify banking information relating to where purchasers deposits were placed.
· Banks reneging on bank guarantees.
· Major delays to appeal resolutions further compromising the purchaser.
· Failure to provide timely enforcements or embargoes of developer assets.
And alongside this scenario, yet more innocent purchasers have been subjected to abusive practice (those who had completed on their properties).
· Town halls issuing licences for properties subsequently (retrospectively) deemed illegal by the Junta
· Purchasers subjected to illegal demolition of properties whilst legal action remained outstanding, used as pawns in the fight between regional and local authorities.
· Spanish government’s failure to ensure compensation in place for those unfairly compromised by these internal political conflicts.
And these are just a few of the scenarios that innocent purchasers have been subjected to, as many still await recompense after several YEARS of delays, that continue to compromise the implementation of Spanish law as per successful legal judgements.
Indeed, if you require further evidence please see MEP Roger Helmer’s plea to the petitions committee within the EU parliament.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTrBbZOaqGE
Sadly the circumstances relating to ongoing abuse of rights and lack of resolution (recompense) to outstanding cases within the Spanish justice system is all too prevelant.
This message was last edited by ads on 18/05/2011.
This message was last edited by ads on 18/05/2011.
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Dear Ads, Sorry for getting you confused with Ruth. Everything you mention below is readily available in the UK. But in the UK we try to mitigate our potential problems by using lawyers. Just as in the UK, the Spanish have a law society and this is regulated under Spanish law. You might get the odd bad egg but that again is nothing new. Buying a place in Spain is very simple providing you follow the steps. If people send money to banks and insist on a bank guarantee then their money is safe. 100% safe. That's rule one. Any breech of contract gives you the purchaser the right to cancel. If you have kindly handed over all your dish to the builder and then you have a problem without a bank guarantee, then your back is against the wall. Likewise if the builder has gone into bankruptcy and you take him to court and he has no assets or huge charges against his assets, you will find it hard to see any financial return. However there are cases over the past few months where certain lawyers, Spanish lawyers, have been successful in getting money back in these cases. There were a few articles in world press and eye on Spain at the end of last year. In the UK if a builder goes bankrupt and your funds have gone with the wind, do you think you get your money back? Would our government hand over the funds? If you took the builder to court it would be lengthy and costly and you still wouldn't see anything. When people buy in Spain they are buying under Spanish law provided they are honest and follow the steps to ensure a legal and safe transaction. Just because we don't like what's happened doesn't mean their system is flawed. I know of a group of over 30 colleagues that bought properties in Murcia. Not one of them used a lawyer and each one handed over cash to receive a "discount" from the builder. The builder didn't have planning permission but built anyway. Now he has gone bust. Those that have a house have an illegal house that by law can be pulled down. Just as in the UK. Those that haven't even got an illegal house have nothing. I have a 14 year old daughter. She thinks that the whole world should conform to our laws and our human rights. It's naive. Spain has it's own laws and when buying in Spain you should be fully aware of those laws and act within them. From what I have read and know, there are several firms of lawyers in the Murcia area that have been very successful in the Murcia area at getting clients money back through bank guarantees regardless of expiry dates and regardless of them being in clients hands. I assume that this just forum will have people at fall into this category. Rather than trying to change a law they can use the law to help them. But if you are waiting for the Spanish government to recompense all the others, I fear it will be like a flee attacking an elephant! I have 4 homes in Spain. I used a lawyer to buy each one. I own each one and I have no problems.....well with txhe exception of not being able to have a strong enough Market to either sell or rent. But that's my fault. Have you thought to take your petition to the Spanish government? José Antonio Alonso is the interiors minister and also a Lawyer. Is it not better to fight from within? Or shall we just send in the troops and demand compliance? I will look more closely as suggested to your petition. I want Spain to be strong and healthy and I want to support security in buying in Spain. If I can find the posts from the lawyers that are actually helping clients, I will forward them to this post.
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“Buying a place in Spain is very simple providing you follow the steps. If people send money to banks and insist on a bank guarantee then their money is safe. 100% safe. That's rule one.”
Not so..... you really must read Keith's petition www.bankguaranteesinspain.com that identifies the abuses, and likewise for those not provided with a BG. There is much ignorance in this regard. Banks are reneging on their guarantees, plus all too many lawyers have not demonstrated due diligence to adhere to law 57/68, to ensure deposited monies for offplan purchase were placed into secure accounts and documented within the purchase contract, now further compounded by those who now hinder attempts and are obstructive to remedy this situation.
As for developers' assets, purchasers have been compromised by significant delays within the court administration system such that some developers have illegally asset stripped prior to administration. Likewise, delays have compromised the issuing of embargoes and preliminary enforcement orders following successful judgements.....in other words the existing procedures in place to protect clients have not been applied in a timely fashion (years of delays) and the innocent client has been significantly compromised as a direct result of these delays, through no fault of their own. When complaints have been made, they have effectively been ignored.
There are no time limits in place to ensure and protect the consumer from this level of incompetence within the existing Spanish legal system. In fact these delays are used as a means to an end, and add to the lack of accountability by those who are in breach of contract, etc. Appeals are placed in full knowledge that it will be years before they are made accountable, if at all. Which is exactly why Keith is calling for a fast track to remedy this scenario. The Spanish Justice system is in disarray and so long as these delays continue to compromise more and more innocent people, then it is essential that any prospective purchaser be made fully aware of the associated risks and consequence to this ongoing lack of justice and final recompense, should that need arise. Please be aware that winning your case does not imply that actual recompense according to the judgement has been applied, and it appears that very few of those with successful judgements have actually been financially recompensed, with all too many “stuck “ in the legal system awaiting judicial resolution from appeals. Therefore be very wary of statistics that quote successful case wins. The true statistics that should be analysed are those that relate to actual IMPLEMENTATION of judgements in the form of recompense.
As for retrospective action by the Junta, and the implications of those "caught" within Spanish political wranglings, there is no defence to such abuse of human rights. All too many followed the steps that you refer to and now find themselves compromised, again through no fault of their own. The question has been rightly asked, what sane person would consider investing in a coastal property in a country where there is no judicial security or transparency?
All our fights from within are hitting a blank wall to date, which is why we have to resort to petitions such as Ruth's, Suzanne's Keith's and the AUAN’s ongoing and commendable endeavours , but still the denials continue and comments such as "transparency" and "legality" are inappropriately used. There is no transparency or accountability as things stand at present, and the abuse of human rights cannot nor should be dismissed or underestimated.
As for comparisons between the British and Spanish legal systems, perhaps you should talk to Faro who has identified from first hand experience many failings and is far better qualified to bring attention to these matters, or TJ222 who has signed this petition and appears to have substantial knowledge of the financial implications.
If you want Spain to be strong and healthy then all these issues will have to be swiftly addressed, and no-one should be under any illusion that these are insignificant issues that will not affect them. A decent , impartial, workable and fair justice system is a basic pre-requisite to any civilised society. Likewise the Banks have much responsibility to bear and should not remain unaccountable. Nor should EU citizens be allowed to be used as pawns caught between political warring factions within a member state such as Spain. All of which place judicial security at the top of the agenda, not just in words but in action.
As we all sadly bear witness, it is in no-one's interest that the status quo is allowed to continue unregulated. I’m sure that Keith, Ruth, Suzanne and the AUAN can further you with evidence if you so require.
I urge all those caught up in this scenario to sign Ruth's petition within the next couple of weeks, when she hopes to present this.
This message was last edited by ads on 18/05/2011.
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Saw this today:
Between January and March this year, Spain received 9 million international tourists; an increase of 2.9% over the same three month period last year reveals the latest data from The Ministry of Industry, Tourism and Trade.
According to the figures, the UK has remained Spain’s biggest fan with 1.8 million visitors in Q1 2011, while 1.47 million German and 1.2 million French visitors travelled to Spain to sample its delights.
It is very likely that some of these visitors will buy a property in Spain.
"Abitare" DOES make some good points. Caution is paramount when buying a property anywhere IMO.
Patricia
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could I ask one question of your bloggers.
are there many of your fellow bloggers and petition signers that have 'lost' their money and that have bank guarantees? or are there bloggers that have sent funds via transfers to banks and that havent got bank guanatees? there really is a way that people can get there money back. i have friends and people i have met on other bloggs that have happily been re united with their dosh.
you dont need to march on Spain to see results!
would you like me to send the links to anyone?
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_______________________
Poppyseed
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Ruth,
I've been away from my PC for a week.
Congratulations on 958 signatures
You have the 1000 if you count all the people who signed as a couple!
Poppyseed,
 my feelings too!
_______________________
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Dear ads, I like many others understand what point it is that you are, like Ruth, trying to make. However you seem to be railing against the system that isn't running the way you would like, but is in fact in place and enforced by the Spanish government. Donyou consider our legal system to be transparent? Does our legal system compensate in cases of bankruptcy? All legal systems seem to be unfair if we are caught on the wrong side ifs the law. What we need to do is to mitigate. Why do we want to buy in Spain? Because it's beautiful, exotic in many ways, warm and offers a lifestyle we simply don't have here in the UK. Why would we ask people not to go? We wouldn't. Why did you and Ruth buy? Was it to change the legal system in Spain? Was it to fight for human rights? I would guess it's because you wanted a life or a holiday life that you can't attain at home. And there is nothing wrong with that. What has soured the taste of paella for many is the horror of losing money either by their fault or by default. It's very English to blame. It's the first thing that as a nation we do. We are terrible at accepting that our actions could possibly be the cause of the result. I'm not suggesting that every English man that is caught in this mess was lured by the offer of handing over cash to receive a discount. Some purchasers would have been too trusting, too blind, too gullible.....the list goes on. Some will also have been cheated by builders and banks and in some cases , lawyers. Blaming the Spanish law will return nothing. Forget the paella, the only result will be washing the pots. How often even in the UK do you find that a petition of even tens of thousands resultsnin any change of law? I am simply suggesting that there are indeed more productive ways for some people to get back their money. I know of these people that that thought they had lost everything but in fact have now got everything back. And some of these people have since bought again! That is a result! I applaud the huge effort that Ruth is making. It's great that she has such support from so many people. But wouldn't it be better if some of these people that signed the petition, could actually get what they want? Money. When you are sat on your terrace enjoying your paella and a San Miguel, the finca yours and legal and paid for, will you really be thinking about Spanish law and human rights? Or will you be enjoying Spain and everything that it represents? It's true that the UK is Spain's biggest Market and that Spain does in many ways rely on our tourism for it's revenue. Would I not buy in Spain because some people have lost money buying in Spain? Would it stop me visiting Spain? No. It would make me cover every angle. If I was buying again in Spain I would make my lawyer my best friend ever. She or he would be at my daughters christening if it meant I could secure my purchase. And right behind the lawyer would be the bank manager. You can buy safe in Spain. What I am suggesting in brief is that there are ways, real ways, that those that have bought off plan, bought from bankrupt builders etc can get their money back. There are real people out there as proof. All I ask is that people in this situation don't give up. Rail against the system all you like, just get your money back. You can do it.
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What you say makes a lot of sense Abitare.
"I am simply suggesting that there are indeed more productive ways for some people to get back their money. I know of these people that that thought they had lost everything but in fact have now got everything back. And some of these people have since bought again! That is a result!"
There are ways and means, as you say. Crusades are great and glorious, and tilting at windmills might be invigorating for a while, but it is true that there are people out there who have got their money back. It might take time and patience, but it is possible.
Patricia
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Abitare,
Many of your statements are completely wrong, in fact I would go so far as to say they are misinformation and do a disservice to your argument. They perpetuate the myth I referred to at the start of this discussion by your implication that purchasers are at fault. You are in effect perpetuating the fear borne by many (with some justification) that purchasers will be pilloried in the Spanish press, made scapegoats and portrayed as somehow complicit in the scandal of urban and real estate abuse You have obviously not read the details relating to Keith’s petition (considered by many on all sides as being eminently sensible and effective), or studied the facts presented by petitioners, nor do you appear to have taken on board the details presented on this thread.
One aspect many fail to recognise is that the regional appeals systems are used abusively to delay resolution for British and other citizens indefinitely, and one of our best means of tackling this is to have a good supply of examples ready to present when we have the opportunity - to demonstrate injustice, refute dishonesty and indicate the large scale of the problem.
You appear to be confused by misinterpreting our intentions. Our cause is to achieve return of monies, to halt the abuse of rights, and to look to the Spanish legal system for justice and respect of our rights. The Spanish legal system at present is denying us our rights.
Keith has explained in detail the situation relating to Bank Guarantee abuse and I do not intend to repeat it here but suggest you investigate the detail before implying that purchasers are at fault.
The Spanish government and their actions are also placing intolerable and inhuman stress and immense financial strain on innocent citizens who through no fault of their own, and I stress that fact, through no fault of their own, are being compromised by internal political wranglings (Town Halls vs Regional Government) as they try to centralise power and impose uniformity on property legislation with areas blighted as a consequence. To quote from their website and firsthand experiences, “AUAN’s members bear witness to corruption and greed amongst government employees, builders, estate agents and the supporting professions (lawyers, architects etc) many of them in denial, but still in possession of massive sums of money obtained through their activities.” AUAN are doing everything possible to prevent or mitigate, as far as possible, any potential 'land-grab' or infrastructure costs having to be borne by owners of properties where these should be borne by other parties. Many cannot afford the fight and to this extent they are imploring others to continue to seek, on their behalf, a fair and speedy solution.
I could continue on indefinitely but enough explanation…. I’m tired of having to defend our corner to be honest.
Please research the true facts before you form conclusions and please don’t perpetuate misinformation.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-spanish-property-roadshow-open-letter-to-davi.html
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I think Abitare and Campana are in cahoots with another agenda. Why have I received a pm from Abitare asking "Are you owed much"?
I would suggest all future posts by either of them be ignored.
_______________________
Poppyseed
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Poppyseed/ads/ruth
The evidence for what you are stating is indeed in the petitions, but if some don't want to accept that, then I agree they must have another agenda that that has little to do with wanting real justice for those swindled and cheated ultimately by the Spanish government. It doesn't suprise me though, these are desperate times for Spain's property industry, and some would prefer the truth kept quiet, while they continue to promote Spain in ever more subtle ways by quietly denying the reality.
I think (hope?) most can see through this!.
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Poppyseed:
How dare you make such an unfounded accusation. I speak for myself as I am sure "abitare" can speak for him or herself. On this and on any forum people are entitled to an opinion, and to offer help and suggestions.
Talk about being paranoid!!! If this is how you and others are conducting a campaign to retrieve investments, by shooting your mouth off at anyone who tentatively suggests there might be other ways and means, well what can I say!
Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean by "cahoots"? Because someone has a well-balanced and pragmatic view does not mean they are in cahoots with anyone.
Patricia
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Please lets keep this positive and look for a way forward from this.
It should not become a divisive issue and we should all be looking for fair solutions to these injustices. But along the way there has to be a realistic appreciation of the harm being done to innocent people, those people who, in the main, through no fault of their own, have been compromised of their monies , land or properties.
No-one want this to continue unregulated, it's in no-ones interest in the longer term, and it takes courage to face some uncomfortable truths, but please lets keep this debate civilised and productive.
Ruth, Keith, Suzanne and the AUAN deserve that at least.
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ads
yes they certainly do deserve that, but we can't blame people for getting angry when the the facts and the truth in the petitions is denied (however subtle) in an attempt to sell Spain. Those facts can't be denied and as many of us have won cases to prove that then any denial of the reality is not only divisive but insulting. I agree though that we have to focus on the positive and offer full support to those fighting so hard to change the bloody awful system that has cheated so many of us.
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I agree entirely, GS and Ads. After all people are free to petition if they so wish, and equally others are free to offer suggestions, given that this is a public forum. Scams can and do happen in every country, I don't think anyone can deny that.
It is pointless attacking me or someone else on here just because we might tentatively ut forward another or additional approach.
I don't expect an apology because people who "flame" you generally never apologise.
Patricia
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