Just moved to Spain. Now suprise bill from Taxman

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27 Jun 2011 8:48 PM by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

Jek

I think we have 2 different postings on this thread. The thread was started by grodob saying "Just been hit with an extra tax bill for 5900 euros"

I've seen Junta Andalucia re-assessments running at EUR100k differences in places like Benalmadena which re-valued at the peak.

I have not commented on patally's case at all becuase Ithink that is something totally different.

But this thread serves as a warning to anyone buying in Spain to be aware of deemed values!!!!

Afterall we must do out bit to help the tax man. Also anyone filling out a tax return should tick the box that says forfeit tax refund to the state.





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27 Jun 2011 11:42 PM by grodob Star rating. 2 posts Send private message

Many thanks to you all for the informative replies.

The links are useful as well thanks. Yes the property is in Andelucia

I have learnt alot and just wish I had known about this before I purchased the villa

The soliciter has offered to contest it but to take the case to court may cost anything up to 1500 and if I lose,  it is even more money disappearing into a black hole.

Thanks again

grodob

 





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28 Jun 2011 8:51 AM by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

Hi grodob

Did you use the services of a lawyer for the conveyance?

If so then I would say very shoddy work on his part not to have checked on Junta Andalucia site for minimum acceptable value. All he needed to do was to request an IBI/rates demand which he should have requested anyway which would show catastral value and enter that into the website. Also it's always a good idea to look back at previous declared values within the past 4 years and make retentions if value was underdeclared on those transactions also.

It's not bloody rocket science.

If that is the case then once again we have a lawyer who probably took a big conveyancing fee and did bugger all work!

 





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28 Jun 2011 10:01 AM by rod Star rating in Uk and Spain. 468 posts Send private message

Im very suprised anyone has been able to sell in this present market

if they pay Capital gains tax it surely means they have made money

Or am I missing something

Rod

 





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28 Jun 2011 11:16 AM by sneezey Star rating. 64 posts Send private message

sneezey´s avatar
I asked my solicitors and this is what they advise: Unfortunately, the Tax Office is able to revise the declared price and check if this is the real market value of the property. In order to find "the market value" they apply some scales to the catastral value of the properties, which has been increased dramatically in the recent past. So, the results are crazy (they are not real market values) but they still doing it, because it is within the law and they want the money.
 
Appeal: better trying than paying. The time to appeal is short, so you must be quick. The outcome of the appeal is impossible to know in advance, as it depends on the circunstances of the concrete case. Doing nothing is the worse thing, sooner or later they will get the money (embargoes...). Look for the advice of Manilva Solicitors, just pop your question in the box at the top of the legal section of Eye on Spain.




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28 Jun 2011 12:02 PM by crostrad Star rating. 92 posts Send private message

Well, not wishing to muddy the waters here, but as we're considering selling our house in Valencia in a couple of years time we did ask the question of our lawyer last week  "What's the tax situation for non-residents when they sell a property?"

Answer:

At the moment the spanish law says that if a non-resident person sells a property, he has to pay 18% of the net profit for capital gains tax

 

So, that's a nice shock to the system--we were planning on using the proceeds to buy somewhere closer to the coast ( I think  that it used to be that you could claim tax back if you re-invested the sale proceeds in another property for your personal use--buy our lawyer told us that the law had been changed-you can't do it any more)

Enough fun for one morning, I'm back to painting the kitchen now.





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28 Jun 2011 12:07 PM by lobin Star rating. 256 posts Send private message

 As Faro mentions, there are two different tax issues covered in this post:

- one issue is the Transfer Tax payable by the purchaser of a property when it is bought from a private person as opposed to a real estate developer, trader or other business (in the latter case the IVA and not the Transfer Tax would be the applicable tax).  The tax base is not the price paid for the property as some seem to believe but rather "the real value".  This is probably based on the very extended habit of underreporting the price paid or paying part in b money.  Therefore when the tax authorities find a difference between reported price and the value they have in their system, the re-assess the tax to the higher amount.

It is true that the values in the system no longer correspond to the real value of the properties so appealing against the re-assessment is a good idea but you would have to produce good evidence that the value is in fact lower.  If you have access to such good evidence, by all means appeal against the re-assessment and you will probably get it revoked.  Of course, getting this evidence will cost money and some consideration should be given as to whether it is worthwhile to go for it.

- another issues is the Capital Gains Tax payable by the seller of a property.  The tax base is the difference between the purchase price and selling price modified by different calculations depending on the circumstances.

 When the seller is a tax resident of Spain, the seller has to file the tax return and pay the CGT.  The purchaser is not required to do anything but verify that the seller is in fact a tax resident,  If the seller is not a tax resident, then the purchaser is required to retain 3% of the purchase price (5% in earlier years) based on the price paid.  The tax base for this retention is the purchase price, not the real value.  If the evidence of tax residency cannot be produced, the tax authorities will conclude that the seller is non-resident and as such the retention should have been made.

To appeal against this conclusion you would have to produce evidence that the seller was in fact a tax resident of Spain and this, again might prove difficult  and costly, if time has passed and the original seller is no longer available.

Rod, unbelievable as it may look, some sellers are still obtaining capital gains, the main reason being that properties purchased a long time ago can still be sold for a higher price than at the time of purchase.

Ads, in the scenario described, the legal owner is still the seller.  it looks to me as if the Escritura has not been sighed because the purchaser refused to complete until the 14.000 euro lien is removed from the property and, of course, this will take some time to sort out.  If the purchaser has access to the property it is probably because the seller consented to this.  It is perhaps a good way to make sure that completion in fact eventually takes place and the purchaser does not walk away from the purchase and demand the deposit back.

I hope I have heldped in clarifying the issues.





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28 Jun 2011 12:07 PM by lobin Star rating. 256 posts Send private message

 As Faro mentions, there are two different tax issues covered in this post:

- one issue is the Transfer Tax payable by the purchaser of a property when it is bought from a private person as opposed to a real estate developer, trader or other business (in the latter case the IVA and not the Transfer Tax would be the applicable tax).  The tax base is not the price paid for the property as some seem to believe but rather "the real value".  This is probably based on the very extended habit of underreporting the price paid or paying part in b money.  Therefore when the tax authorities find a difference between reported price and the value they have in their system, the re-assess the tax to the higher amount.

It is true that the values in the system no longer correspond to the real value of the properties so appealing against the re-assessment is a good idea but you would have to produce good evidence that the value is in fact lower.  If you have access to such good evidence, by all means appeal against the re-assessment and you will probably get it revoked.  Of course, getting this evidence will cost money and some consideration should be given as to whether it is worthwhile to go for it.

- another issues is the Capital Gains Tax payable by the seller of a property.  The tax base is the difference between the purchase price and selling price modified by different calculations depending on the circumstances.

 When the seller is a tax resident of Spain, the seller has to file the tax return and pay the CGT.  The purchaser is not required to do anything but verify that the seller is in fact a tax resident,  If the seller is not a tax resident, then the purchaser is required to retain 3% of the purchase price (5% in earlier years) based on the price paid.  The tax base for this retention is the purchase price, not the real value.  If the evidence of tax residency cannot be produced, the tax authorities will conclude that the seller is non-resident and as such the retention should have been made.

To appeal against this conclusion you would have to produce evidence that the seller was in fact a tax resident of Spain and this, again might prove difficult  and costly, if time has passed and the original seller is no longer available.

Rod, unbelievable as it may look, some sellers are still obtaining capital gains, the main reason being that properties purchased a long time ago can still be sold for a higher price than at the time of purchase.

Ads, in the scenario described, the legal owner is still the seller.  it looks to me as if the Escritura has not been sighed because the purchaser refused to complete until the 14.000 euro lien is removed from the property and, of course, this will take some time to sort out.  If the purchaser has access to the property it is probably because the seller consented to this.  It is perhaps a good way to make sure that completion in fact eventually takes place and the purchaser does not walk away from the purchase and demand the deposit back.

I hope I have heldped in clarifying the issues.





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28 Jun 2011 12:13 PM by Poppyseed Star rating. 897 posts Send private message

Is CGT still payable if the property has been owned for 10 years?

 



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28 Jun 2011 12:28 PM by jek Star rating. 249 posts Send private message

jek´s avatar

CGT is payable no matter how long it has been owned.  As lobin mentions, it is based on the difference between the escritura price for the two transactions.  The only relevance of how long you've owned the property is if you bought it prior to 1990 something.  Then the depreciation allowed as offset is different.





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28 Jun 2011 12:44 PM by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

As regards CGT the gain is sometimes higher due to the practice in earlier years to under declare on acquisition. So you might have saved VAT/transfer tax at 7% but now you pay more CGT at 19%!





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28 Jun 2011 2:14 PM by campana Star rating in Marbella. 474 posts Send private message

28 Jun 2011 2:16 PM by Poppyseed Star rating. 897 posts Send private message

We bought our first house in Spain in 1984 and sold it 18 years later and I was sure we didn't pay any CGT because we had owned it over 10 years, but to be honest I don't remember too many of the finer details I was mainly interested in what the actual proceeds were. I was also under the impression that if another house was bought with the proceeds there would be no CGT payable.  

Thanks for the information forewarned is forearmed!



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Poppyseed




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28 Jun 2011 2:35 PM by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

Poppyseed - no roll over relief for non-residents.





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