Help with Copia Simple

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16 Aug 2011 12:00 AM by coleen Star rating. 84 posts Send private message

 Hello there,

A friend of ours who is an old English gentleman and now lives in England, is trying to sell a property he owns here in Spain.  We have said we will do what we can to help him as we live nearby in Spain and often get asked by people if we know of anything for sale in the area and we do believe that his property constitutes a good buy for somebody. 

Anwyay, I posted a while back because he said that he didn't know where his Escritura was and I was kindly given advice on here which has resulted in the Copia simple now being in my posession.  And this does indeed prove that he is the legal owner.

However, as far as I can see, there is a huge mortgage on it of around 90+k euros plus costs, interest etc.  This gentleman, let's call him Don, says that he did have a mortgage but that it has been paid off now.  However, he can't show me/find any bank statements which would prove this. 

What I would like to do is to find out for myself if this debt has been paid off because the last thing I want to do is help sell a property that is largely, (if not entirely) owned by the bank.  By the way, when I collected the Copia Simple at the Registro, they did tell me that there is a debt of around 350 euros to a plumbing company, but of course that is small so no problem. 

Is there a way that I can do this because as far as I can see the Copia Simple says that there is still this debt and that, worse still, the time period for it to be paid back in has just run out.  

I'd be really grateful for any help. 

This is an excerpt from the Copia Simple:

Cargas

Hipotaca (Prestamo) a favour de Banco Santadner central Hispano SA formalizada mediante escritura otorgada en … (sitio)… a 22 abril, 2001, ante el Notoario Don Pedro …(nombre) ... , en garantia de

90.150,82 € de capital,

de 10.818,22 € de interes ordinaries,

de 48.681,98 € de intereses de demora, y

 22.537.95 € para costas y gastos, plazo de duracion: seite años. 

Asi resulta de la inscription …. Numero … 14 junio, 2001.  

After which follows five headings:  Afecicon

 





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16 Aug 2011 1:37 PM by Toddie Star rating in Nr Elche Alicante Hu.... 107 posts Send private message

 

As  far as I am aware after a mortgage has been paid off I think you have to go to the Notary so they can detail that the mortgage has been discharged. Maybe your friend was'nt aware of this and failed to finalize the transaction with the Notario, perhaps he just paid off the bank and thought that was the end of it.



_______________________
Toddie



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16 Aug 2011 2:13 PM by coleen Star rating. 84 posts Send private message

 Very many thanks for the helpful post.

I wonder if this means that I have to go to the Notario now as he is not able to do so himself.  And what that would entail ie if I should approach the bank first and take paperwork from them with me.





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16 Aug 2011 2:34 PM by Toddie Star rating in Nr Elche Alicante Hu.... 107 posts Send private message

 

The bank maybe able to help you but I would think that you would need his power of attorney before you would be able to do anything on his behalf.  If he is now living in the UK you maybe able to find a Notario there that could do the power of attorney for you. 


 



This message was last edited by Toddie on 16/08/2011.

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Toddie



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16 Aug 2011 2:40 PM by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5242 posts Send private message

Just a minor point.
 
I think what you got from the Registro was a NOTA  SIMPLE. 
 
 A copia simple is a copy of the escritura.  That would not show debts on the property. 
 
 It is better to use the correct names, wit notaries, lawyers etc.  as it may cause confusion not to do so.
 
 
Without a power of attorney from the owner to act for him, you may find that you cannot do anything.  Best to ask the notary or lawyer you would be using,  before you go further.





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16 Aug 2011 4:00 PM by coleen Star rating. 84 posts Send private message

 Many thanks for pointing out that it is in fact a Nota Simple - you are of course quite correct.  I had it in my head that it was a Copia Simple but it does indeed say Nota Simple on the front.  Slack of me not to notice! 

But the good thing is that if I had got the Copia Simple and not the nota simple, I would not have know about the existence of this debt. 

I just don't know if there is going to be an easy way for me to find out about this debt still being upnpaid or not and I don't think a power of attorney would work, even if he would give it to me.  'Don' tells me that it is paid off but won't or can't prove it.  But I am of a suspcious nature when it comes to these things added to which I don't think he can be guaranteed to know what is correct and what isn't.

What happened is that the debt is in fact in his son's name, as his son was at the time resident in Spain and he wasn't.  Don tells me that he has always provided his son with an allowance (son used to be poor and father rich but I think these roles might have been reversed!) and this allowance was uped to pay off the debt and some more besides.  Now father and son have fallen out and son won't tell father if the debt has been paid off or not.  

In conclusion, the debt is not even in his name but, I believe, on the property itself - so I could do with an easy way to find out the current status of any debt. 





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16 Aug 2011 4:15 PM by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5242 posts Send private message

If Don called the mortgage provider (Bank) or wrote to them,  and asked them to write and confirm the status of the loan, that would clear it up. OR, being that it is Spain, the bank might even tell you if it has been paid off.
 
My son has a property here;  he has paid off the mortgage but has not, gone the 'ridiculous expense' of having it noted at the Registro, so Don may be correct. The alarm bells are ringing though when you describe the relationship between the father and son, almost anything could exist.  

 





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16 Aug 2011 5:39 PM by Poppyseed Star rating. 897 posts Send private message

My advice would be to steer clear of it all.  It sounds as though you will have to spend a lot of frustrating  time and effort and the people you are trying to help don't seem to be helping you. I would tell them to enagage a lawyer to sort what appears to be a complete shambles out.



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Poppyseed




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17 Aug 2011 10:06 AM by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9419 posts Send private message

mariadecastro´s avatar

 Most updated Land Registry information is always the first document to start with. From there, the rest of the work is carried out.



_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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17 Aug 2011 10:16 AM by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5242 posts Send private message

Remember.  Not all debts are shown on the Nota Simple. only those which have ben registered.  

 

 It is for this resaon I was surprised to see that a plumber had registered a debt of 350€.  For me that would 'start the alarm bells ringing.'

 

 





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17 Aug 2011 11:15 AM by DMS Star rating in Spain. 27 posts Send private message

DMS´s avatar

Hi,

 

The only way to find out if a debt is still outstanding, or not, is by contacting the bank that gave the mortgage. Sometimes the mortgage is paid off, but not cancelled in the Land Registry, so the debt still appears on the Nota Simple.

 

The steps to be followed would be:

-Firstly, contact the bank that gave the mortgage, to confirm that the loan is paid off in full.

-If the loan is repaid in full, ask the bank to sign the Cancellation of the Mortgage Deed, this would need to be done in a Notary‘s office.

-Lastly, take the signed deed to the Land Registry to register the cancellation of the Mortgage.  .

 

Obviously, the above procedures would involve some fees and expenses.

 

I would suggest that your friend gives a Power of Attorney to a solicitor to deal with the process of cancellation of the mortgage and also for representing him with in a potential sale, as well as insuring that all his tax obligations are met, (clearance of debts, etc.).



_______________________
Marbella Solicitors Manilva Solicitors



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17 Aug 2011 1:28 PM by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5242 posts Send private message

Coleen,  
 
I was a little surprised by the last post (in bold letters)  as it really just repeated the advice already posted, except folr  the 'strong' suggestion that Don  appoint a solicitor to be the POA, instead of maybe a friend ( maybe you, who would not charge as a lawyer would).
 

   When I saw that the poster is a legal assistant to a solicitor!!!   Thus, whilst the advice may be sound, it is not totally unbiased advice. 


 

 





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