We bought a 2,500 sq m plot of land in 2002 in Estacion de Cartama

Hi all,

I found your thread whilst looking for information of a segregation licence.

We have found ourselves in a nightmare situation.

My father died last year.  He had a property in Malaga area.  Fortunately he had a spanish will but no spanish or english life insurance, so we are currently looking at a heafty spanish inheritance tax bill.

We were unaware the problems he was in regarding his property in spain, as he was old fashioned i suppose and tought that he was protecting us, and also I don't think he wanted to admit what a mess he was in.

Below is an extract from an email from our solicitor.

 Land Registry reply
We posted the original deeds. They have been revised one by one (at no cost) and the Land Registry has finally replied that the deeds cannot be registered unless we can amend the following issues:

A) Purchase deed signed on 27 april 1993 : it is necessary to deliver the Segregation License issued by the Town Hall.

B) New Building Declaration Deed signed on 10th april 2000

C) Purchase deed signed on 5th September 2002 (signed by verbal attorney Mr. S which was ratified by Mr H on 23rd September 2002):

The issue of Segregation License appears to be a more difficult task, it would be necessary to contact the former owners and get as much information as possible, even from the Town Hall to check if they have any records of a segregation license granted to Mr M on 1993.

As explained, the issue of Segregation License apeared to be a more difficult task.

We firstly made contact with the Urban Planning department of Antequera Town Hall and they told us that it didn't appear any licence as per their records. Additionally we called Mr F C, the person who sold the property to Mr H and he explained that there wasn't any licence of segregation because the surface of the plot segregated was smaller than the minimum one which is compulsory under Spanish Law. In fact this is the reason why he couldn't register his property at the Land Registry.

So now this has been clarified, unfortunately it seems we cannot proceed with the registration due to the lack of segregation license.

 

I am really confused about this as the property is up a mountain with many other properties, I think they may be on larger plots.  I am unsure about what is required for a spanish property to be legal and what is a segregation licence etc.  I would ask our solicitor but at 240.00 per hour I thought I would try here first. 

 

Regaards

 

Lisa

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Hi Lisa, I am a bit confused, here is alist of questions if you could answer them I shall try and give any info I can.
When did your father actually buy this house,
Was there a house on the land,
Does he have an escitura, -deed-
has he done any building.

Land can only be segregated if the individual plots are the legal amount set by the town hall, but my neighbours have all segregated their land
with less than the required amount, all depends if you have family or friends in the town hall, or a nice brown envelope with money in it. does he
have a catastral number. e mail me privately with the address or area where his house is, and I will check the catastral for you, this will tell you what you have,
and may help a bit.. It is a minefield with every town hall having different rules, which they dont even know themselves. I would think that being up a mountain
it would be very illegal, but who knows ,  Things have become a lot stricter in the last couple of years, so lawyers, agents etc, are less likely to do anything dodgy, its not so easy to sell illegal stuff now,  e mail me with you details to myer200@yahoo.com

I have one finca with 2 parcelas, both have catastral numbers, but everyone Ive asked about it says I cannot seperate them as two seperate things or have two deeds.
so has to be sold as one , even though my spanish neighbours have. life is unfair being a guiri.

jackie

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Hola to all, well our situation is still on going in Estacion de Cartama,we are no further forward but at least for the moment our Houses in finca Raton are still standing. We have no segregation order , and it is most unlikely that we ever will, but we have applied for the Land to be put in all our names .... dont know how this will work or how it can be done , our Spanish friends are working with our Lawyer  on this one, and if and when it comes to fruition I will let you all know.   As for making them legal well nobody still seems to have a clue !!!!! what to do !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Hi Janny,

Happy to hear they have not knocked down your property yet, and that you are still fighting the fight. 

We are still trying to find out further information from our solicitor regarding our own situation as we are being pressed to sort out the property valuation so that the inheritance tax amount can be calculated.  Easier said than done as the banks have to legally value it but they will not issue us with an official valuation as the property is not registered at the land registry as there is no segregation licence.  Reading all the past post on this thread  it make me wonder pay why I should it if they could knock the house down.  I have asked a neighbour to my late fathers property in Colmenar as I have been told that the land is "secano" (rural dry land) and therefore, the referred minimum size is 25,000 m2. my father's plot size as per the purchase deed he signed is  3,202.50 m2 so it does not comply with the minimum size requirement, if there land is registred the same as looking on the cadastral the plots in the same area, the other plots do not look 10x larger than my fathers, I am waiting for a reply, perhaps they are and the owners don't know.  Anyway good luck with your own situation and anyone else who finds themselves in a similar nightmare.  If you do start up an action group etc count me in.  I am in the UK but anything I can do just ask. 

Regards

Lisa

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Hi Janny and all of  the others in this sad situation.

My name is Sarah and I am living in Houston Texas, I feel helpless being so far away from my mum. I found your forum this morning after spending two days on the phone to my mum Maureen who lived in Cartama. My parents sold thier home in England and in January of 2004 bought cash through an estate agent, a partially built home with a considerable amount of land. A lawyer was present at the signing of the home and my parents pressumed that everything was legal.

Mum moved into the house and had a pool built and made a support wall for the entry to the house, as the house is high on a hill and it was for it needed it for privacy and safety reasons. The builder of the pool told her that no permission was needed as long as he followed certain guidelines for pool building. The outside structure of the house was there already and she spent thousands finishing the inside of the house.

Like you she has now been given a whopping fine, told at one point that the house was never there when she bought it and she had to find evedence that it was.  We did get one ariel view and we are trying to get more evidence, although I feel they don't care if it was there or not. 

The Estate agent still lives in Cartama and will NOT help her. Thousands of Euros have been paid to lawyers that have made the situation worse and now they are threatening to demolish the pool and the wall , also maybe the house. The fine is close to forty thousand euros and the nieghbors around her also built pools and only were given small fines. I think that she is being victimised and singled out for some reason.

Someone has to be accountable for this, be it the estate agent or the previous seller. Her whole life savings has been put into this not to mention the hard work. I think that she is going to have a nervous breakdown. My dad is back in England taking a job at 64 yrs old to pay the fine that even when paid means nothing. The house is still illegal  if they pay it so what is the fine for and it can still be pulled to the floor.

We can pull together, a class action law suit to the estate agents, contact the British consulate to protect you, go to the British papers and television. Why don't you all meet in the village and pull together to find a solution to this. Can someone help my mum and meet her for a coffee? She is alone and not sleeping worried that they are coming for her home.

What should we do first, lets come up with a plan!

Regards,
Sarah.

 

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Hi sarahc,
I wish I could help but we are miles away.
Tell your Mum she is in my thoughts, not much help I know but all I can do.

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Sarah, I am so sorry to hear of the awful situation your parents find themselves in; it really isn't fair for things like this to happen! I am not in a position to help being in England, but would suggest that you send a message to MariadeCastro, a very good lawyer, who contributes to EOS and gives advice about peoples questions and is extremely highly regarded. She may be in a position to point your parents in the right direction as to the best way forward. If you look on the general forums and find where she has posted you could either as on there, or send her a private message.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family for a positive outcome.

Regards Julia

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sarah, ask your mum to contact me and I will try to help her, The estate agent who sold her the house has broken laws, as new laws are now in
place. how long has the house been there. there are things you can do. It is very frustrating as the town hall are a bunch of muppets who make 
it all up as they go along.
your mum can call me on 678517599 and I will arrange to meet her.

 

Jackie

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Hi Everyone,
I just wanted to say a Thank You for your support and Jackie I will pass on your number to my Mum and tell her to phone you - Thank You. Her name is Maureen. I feel so bad for her she has not slept or been able to eat in four days in fear that they are coming to pull the house down!

They have no land line up there and her cell has to get a good signal, I will try just now. At this point she is wishing that she had stayed in England, I pray that I can help her in some way.

I phoned Nasa yesterday and they told me of a French company that do spot imaging of the world going back until 1998. So I will try and get an image of the property before she moved in to it.

I am ready to fight this and get lawyers on the estate agent, the lawyer and find the seller who is in England. 

The Spanish council can not do this to people it is against human rights!  Could you image Britain doing this to the people?  We treat illegal criminals better in our country than this, most of the people that they are doing this to are good citizens looking for a better life. 

I could understand it if the land was not hers,  or the home was not tasteful, I think she kept the look very Spanish and a darn sight better than what was there before. As far as them saying that the pool has to be filled in by the retaining wall debris is crazy, everyone has a pool in the area and she is willing to pay a fine for having it built. Thay said if she doesn't do it they will send someone and charge her!

Thanks Everyone and bless you all.
Sarah.

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We will be able to offer our legal perspective if you send to us the related documentation.

Best,

Maria

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sarahc........................Maria has offered her services......................take her up on it, she is the BEST.

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SARAH C. Please be careful if you decide to use a lawyer, in our experience over 11 years lawyers we have used for various things
are quite useless and just want your money, and quite a bit upfront, they will promise you many things, everything you want to hear
and actually do nothing. I live in cartama and know how dreadful the town hall are, I can tell you many things and advise you from 
experience and is free of charge.
My phone has been off this afternoon , the battery was dead..

Jackie.

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As I am speaking there are at least 2 people building new houses, I can see them from my villa, its amazing that they can just carry on.
My neighbours were stopped recently for putting a new roof on their house. One law ffor one and one law for another.

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Hi all,

As you can see from my previous posts I am in a similar situation with a property I have inherited from my father.  We initially went to a lawyer with a good reputation as I had read reports about dodgy lawyers and estate agents.  I have since found out from research that most rural properties are illegal.  Following the bad press the local town halls want to avoid any more of this as much as possible, but once an official file has been opened by a good reputable lawyer etc. than an official enquiry has to be made and government officials become involved.  The problem can esculate then to other properties in the same area as the original property.  (as they are all possibly illegal).  Action then has to be taken by the town hall following pressure from the government.  (including bulldozing)!!!!!!

There are ways around it but I am unsure if it is legal.  

I am unsure of the answer.  We wanted to do everything correctly but feel that is not an option, we have tried and it has cost  us several thousands of euros so far and we are still in the same position regarding the property registration as when we started.  This is not the UK property market, it is corrupt and the only way to get out of it is in the same manner.  Sorry for not being able to give you more positive and legal answer. 

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Hi everyone, 
am glad that people are finally finding the eye on spain forums and managing to have their say and hopefully getting in touch with people in similar situations.  We all know the only way forward is in numbers, going it alone is much too difficult, especially if you dont have an understanding of the Language, my friend Jo is living proof of this, she went to court thinking she was taking  the Lawyer and Estate Agent to court  for selling her an illegal house , and it ended up with her paying all the courts costs, well over 12,000 euros and they had taken the builder to court ...... obviously he could say what he wanted as she couldnt understand ....... and she didnt have a clue as to what was going on as she wasnt allowed to say anything in court , so said her english legal administrator, nice person she was wasnt she ........ makes me wonder if the legal administrator could actually really understand spanish, or more to the point understand the laws in Spain , she didnt help Jo at all, in fact the reverse, and yes her House is still illegal and she doesnt know what to do next ......  So what do we do .....
And yes I have heard that all houses built on Rustico Land are not legal ..... so why do some people think that their houses built on Rustico land are  ????  where does that leave us all, what can we do to make them legal ........ Mmmmmm no one seems to know the answer to this one do they .......

Hasta Luego

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Hi janny, my neighbours tell us that there land and house are urban, they dont seem to understand that

your house is classed as urban but their land is RUSTIC. try telling them and they just look at you as if to say

your a liar or being horrible. wake up people and smell the coffee. there is talk that the junta is going to legalise

all illegal properties except those in protected parklands or in a dangerous position. I dont know how true this story

is It came from a lawyer.  I think this is the only way around the problem. lets wait and see.

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