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We have supsended ceilings on our upper floor.
Last winter we pumped polystyren beads (bean bag beads) into the empty space its about 15 cm deep.
The house does feel warmer.
The other solution we are considering is painting the outside of the house dark red (currently its cream).
I think the extra heat absorbtion of the sun might help.
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Our little house is terracota colour. I suppose it helps in winter, although we don't have big problems with being cold and have identified the thin roof as being our achilles heel - for heat escaping in winter and heat penetrating in summer.
On the other hand, our terracota walls soak up the heat like a brick oven. In summer you can feel the heat radiating out from a metre or so away. So I would be careful with the deep red. Another error we made was having an 80 sq m patio built around the house using very attractive red brick. Looks great , but same story - by the end of a hot summers day we can barbecue on it. For our next project, I think we would go pastel - although in our area the terracota look is common
Thinking about it, most of the dark buildings in our villages are in narrow streets designed for shade and with lots of trees. I suppose the error is terracota in an exposed position.
This message was last edited by GuyT on 07/07/2012.
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I have done our house here in BG with polystyrene boards"ext", and I can tell you it does work.The poly boards here are fairly cheap,and it's even cheaper if you can do it yourself,as I can.
The same method is used,poly boards stuck to the walls using Cerecit CM11 which is waterproof,then sticking fibreglass netting to the poly using the same CM11.The CM11 is grey in colour so if you want a different colour finish just use a water resistant top coat.
I'v found that the mortar coats you put on must be done in thin layers or they tend to crack.
We do get extremes here,where we live it tends to get down to an av. of about -10/-15c in winter, and in summer at the mo it's 36c outside,while we have lived here we have had it as high as 43c,2 years ago.
I think for damp problems,ventilation is the answer.When I lived in Oliva,just north of Denia,it was full time living there for me,no damp problems at all...For people using house as holiday homes,they had the problems.
I used to look after a friends house,and because we ventilated it regular,more so in summer,it was damp free.
I went for a weeks visit there last year,and guess what,yep,damp all over inside,so that's why I personally think that ventilation could be the answer to damp problems.
Regards
Steve
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Unfortunately, Spanish and Portuguese are still dinosaurs where construction is involved and the ‘traditional methods’ used in Iberia result in poor, uneconomic, unhealthy buildings that totally ignore today’s ecological requirements, demanded of the rest of Europe. So, preventing carbon emission (or heat loss) in a building that was not designed with any target ‘U values’ is very difficult to do – if not impossible.
“U Value” describes how much thermal energy, expressed in WATTS is transported through the building components, expressed as W/(m2K). Typically it would appear as 0.27 W/m2K or maybe 0.18W/m2K - the lower the better.
Spain does have minimum thermal and acoustic standards, described in the El Código Técnico de la Edificación but would not be acceptable in many other countries – and this has only been law since 2006.
Prior to this, building regulation was considered ‘open framework’ as opposed to today’s ‘regulatory framework’ (Some rules and a few more rules?)
Also in 2010 the Euro-codes were introduced to enforce harmonized construction design criteria throughout Europe, although little evidence is visible in Iberia. (The Construction Euro-code took 39 years to implement from inception to legislation).
Reducing heat loss and preventing the radiator effect in hot weather can’t be done by sticking a bit of insulation in a building – it’s where you put it and the type of insulation, used that is important. As an example, using 150mm thick roof thermal bat would be less effective that a 80mm PIR sheet IF the building has been detailed correctly. A building should be like a thermos flask and retain the heat when introduced and likewise keep an ambient temperature in cool conditions.
A clear air cavity of at least 50mm is essential to achieve this state of affairs along with 2 wall skins, one of which should be insulated (warm-side) and if using a modern method of construction a vapour control layer should also be used internally. A heat barrier that also doubles as a VCL can be used under rafter and under plasterboard and this will prevent heat ingress during hot weather conditions. Air changing (ventilation), is crucial at all times.
If you don’t mind losing some floor space, you could fix vertical timber battens to the walls say, 75mm x 50mm, infill with dense 90mm Rockwool flexi ( or similar which will compact) or example: 75mm Kingspan TW55 and then overlay with thermo plasterboard you will vastly improve your internal conditions. (Don't forget the VCL). Use standard 12mm plasterboard with VCL if the old budget is a bit tight. Obviously this comes at a price as you will not find any of these products in Spain and all have to come from UK and are not expensive there.
Many trucking companies are now doing a groupage scheme, where your small order is collected in UK and delivered to you – it may take some time, but it is affordable.
Don’t try to ‘add’ an external wall to the existing building – you will create a massive problem for yourself and do more harm than good.
Hope this helps.
Woodbug
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Hi Woodbug
Could you tell me what the massive problems I have created for myself by putting insulation on my outside walls,thats in layman terms,as I'm at the moment sitting inside,comfortably cool whilst it is 35c outside.
Cheers
Steve
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Like many others we went for insulation.
Suspended ceiling insulated above, insulated the cavity walls (Apartment built circa 1975) and double glazed windows. Dramatic difference in the winter. We also heat with air conditioning (bomba de calor). Round figures 1kw of power gives nearly 3kw of heat. we also have sliding blinds (Ikea) which reduce the size of the lounge for winter.
But on a budget, you could try an electric heated throw, from £30 online, using about 3 cents of electric a night.
We bought our neighbour one, and she says its the best present she ever had. (shame)
Mac
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The main problem that occurs with adding a second leaf to the exterior of the wall is the creation of a 100% effective ‘seal’. If there are any air –pockets between the existing wall and the new installation, water will find its way into them and create holding pools that will affect the main walls in time and this can lead to all kinds of problems associated with damp ingress. Any areas not sealed, such as joints and finishes at eaves level will invite unwanted insects to take up residence and any insect reliant on a cellulosic diet will be delighted with the offerings that some materials used will have on offer.
The Spanish methods of building leave unwanted gaps and cavities in the structural elements, such as the gaps left when laying the infill bricks between the concrete superstructure, many of the bricks used are full of holes and are laid in a non-coursed random fashion. This creates a damp problem called interstitial condensation – simply, vapour laden air from inside the house, created by showers, washers and even human breath, passes through the inside walls and when it meets the colder outside air, it condensates and returns back to its liquid form. You don’t see it until it manifests itself by appearing as mould on your walls. Conversely an insulated external wall when hot, will sweat if the internal side is cooler.
A clear air-flow cavity with a warm internal wall and a cold outside wall is by far the best combination.
This is an extract from English Heritage ‘Energy Efficiency in Historic Buildings’:
Traditional solid walls have very different physical characteristics to modern cavity walls. The construction and performance of the walls need to be fully understood before adding insulation or there will be a significant risk of creating long term problems.
It is ironic that the advice and information dispensed for ancient listed buildings in UK applies exactly to the Spanish buildings of today. The materials and methods used are outdated, have no respect for our environment and certainly are an expensive way of producing poor buildings that have no place in modern society.
(Sorry, Woodbugs on the soapbox again………… well it is Saturday!)
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Hi Woodbug,I do appreciate what you say about water getting behind,but I like to think that I do things correctly,and not like the spanish,or Bulgarians,.
I've had no sign of damp up to now,but I understand where you are coming from.
Steve
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Re damp in walls. Bit off thread sorry.
A few years ago I bought a villa which I discovered had a rising damp problem, as there was no damp proof course.
From the outside I drilled holes, at about a 10 degree downward angle, at the inside floor level, at 9 inch centres, through the walls to just short of the plaster on the inside.
Then I inserted a tube with a funnel attached and poured a resin based water-proofer into the holes, withdrawing the tube slowly as I did so, in order to ensure I was distributing a layer of sealant thought-out the length of the holes.
I repeated the exercise every couple of day for a couple of weeks, and thereby created a damp proof course within the porous brickwork.
It resulted in dry walls.
I have successfully used the same MO on inside walls, by drilling down from just above the skirting tiles, diagonally into the base of the walls, to about floor level, where rising damp has been a problem
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The Gravity Transfusion method of installing a DPC was quite common until the arrival of the multi nozzle injector machine, and in a ‘good’ wall it works well, the old way was to do almost exactly what johnzx describes, although a different drilling pattern depending on wall thickness and type and then fill suspended inverted bottles attached to a rubber pipe to fill the drilled holes.
The purpose of an introduced remedial dpc is to form a continuous waterproof barrier to prevent rising damp by proofing a horizontal externally pointed mortar bed ( a bit rare in Spain), or flood the perp joints and brick/stonework. This only works if the building has permeable masonry that will take the fluids and any impervious materials used in the construction will not take.
The dangers with this method, if used in anything other than a ‘good’ wall are:
1. Airlocks.
2. Any fissures in the masonry will not be treated and any water seeking escape would now be under greater pressure
because it can’t get past the new DPC and the pressure would force it up the fissures and it would manifest itself at a higher
level (fountain effect).
Remember that as the walls dry out, the hygroscopic salts from the earth that the water has transported will show on the walls as it dries, so the plaster needs to be removed to about 1m high prior to injecting, then the walls cleaned off with wire brush and bleach. Re-plastering using a salt-retardant plaster or a sand/cement and Sika type proofer will finish the job.
It’s curious that in the old days, a very simple approach was used in construction where damp was concerned and a layer of impervious material such as marble was used as a DPC and falling/penetrating damp was controlled on the 1” = month rule. They worked out that stonework absorbed water at the rate of 1” per month and dried out at a similar rate. So, build a 12” thick wall, 4” rubble fill then another 12” internal wall. Maybe a bit over the top - but the job was a good ‘un!
Woodbug
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Since moving to Spain we have installed secondary Glazing which we put up in the winter and take down in the summer. At a cost of €50 for a 4' x 4' window we find we got our money back in the first year.
We have also put in PVC insulated internal cladding boards which are not only very decorative, but keeps the warmth in and the damp out.
Martin Vale
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DAMP WALL IN UNDERBUILD
I am looking for a product to solve some penetrating damp in an underbuild (1 outer wall only).
My terraced property is 25 years old and the damp has only come to light since 2 nearby pepper trees
were cut down 4 years ago... obviously they were feeding and absorbing all the moisture in the past.
The problem is not ‘drastic’ (water is not coming in as such) – Only damp which damages the decor.
It dries reasonably well in summer but reappears the following spring after the next damp winter.
Does anyone know of a paint on / brush on product which can be purchased on the Costa Blanca?
Which does not involve plastering or adding an internal cavity dry wall after but actually works as it says on tne tin?
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Alec D
If the damp is in the wall then painting the surface will not stop the problem, only maybe hide it for a while. You would need to create a damp proof course in the wall below the inside floor level. If you want to do that easily and cheaply, see my post of the 7th July.
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Hi Alec,
Are you sure that the problem is created by external conditions? As this is in your under-build and only appears in Winter – could it be condensation? If it has a surface growth of down and spots (spores) usually black, but could be brown or green, then it is condensation and can be removed by washing the affected areas with bleach and opening the windows to get rid of airborne spores. The spores feed on sugars and deposits of detritus, kill them and the problem is half solved. Now keep the area ventilated and introduce some heat in the winter and it should keep the problem at bay.
If it is water ingress, it is unlikely that the removal of the trees has caused the problem and I would check the ground level outside the offending wall and if it is higher or even level, this could be the problem and there are several methods of dealing with this, without being too drastic.
Other causes can be external bodies in contact with the wall e.g. Flags incorrectly installed causing water to pool at wall/flag joint. Lean-to shelters with no wall flashings – in fact any obstruction touching the wall (piles of logs etc) can all cause a damp problem within a solid wall construction. Try to find the problem before you administer the cure as the damp will only find another location.
Falling damp can also be mistaken for rising damp in Spain as the use of Gable ladders, to give a roof overhang are not a common feature, so rainwater can fall off the roof down the gable wall and collect at floor level. If you have gutters, and fall-pipes check them for blockage or bad joints as they could be the culprits.
Another common cause of water ingress are vegetable ‘trenches’ in the garden running adjacent to the affected wall, as they fill up quickly in heavy rain and will drain towards the house.
Hope this helps,
Woodbug
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Hi Johnzx & Woobug
Thanks for replying promptly….
A DPC would not be the answer.
This is an UNDERBUILD solid concrete about 10 inches thick and 8 feet high below ground level.
Therefore cannot access from outside. Must be resolved from inside.
There must be a product in Spain to ’Tank’ the wall without the need to re-render or to build a2nd skin internally.
The pepper trees that were removed are known in Spain to be ’water seekers’. So I do believe they were keeping the damp at bay till they were removed.
DAMP WALL IN UNDERBUILD
I am looking for a product to solve some penetrating damp in an underbuild (1 outer wall only).
My terraced property is 25 years old and the damp has only come to light since 2 nearby pepper trees
were cut down 4 years ago... obviously they were feeding and absorbing all the moisture in the past.
The problem is not ‘drastic’ (water is not coming in as such) – Only damp which damages the decor.
It dries reasonably well in summer but reappears the following spring after the next damp winter.
Does anyone know of a paint on / brush on product which can be purchased on the Costa Blanca?
Which does not involve plastering or adding an internal cavity dry wall after but actually works as it says on tne tin?
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I've seen 'damp' many a time on Spanish new builds and relatively (less than ten years) new builds where in general the main slab is dampproofed ok to provide a base level dampcourse. Where problems occur is at first floor and above where the concrete slab on this level penetrates the outer skin for a patio or just as a floor level whgere cavity bricks are then built on top. What this creates is a COLD SPOT at the base of the wall on the INSIDE normally adjacent to a window or ewven more so a patio door set especially when double glazed.
I have had a client swear that I was wrong and insisted his wall was leaking. He had his balcony ripped up only to find a perfectly good tailor impermeable membrane in tact and a half metre up the outside wall under the external rendering.
So waht was the damp?
ANSWER: Damp with mould nearly always a result of CONDENSATION in WINTER.
In summer its not a probl;em as windows tend to be OPEN.
VENTILIATION (lack of) is the biggest cause of damp problems in 'new' homes in Spain in my experience.
Mecahnical ventilation is your best solution..have fitted a good quality (British brand) extractor fan with a time delay or humidistat. Not always easy to find but contact me if any trouble finding one.
You need to be changing the air and venting any damp from showers and living conditions especially cooking
Christopher Gamble
First Impression Property Solutions
_______________________
Christopher Gamble
Stratico and First Impression Property Services
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It rather sounds like if the trees had any involvement, it was to dry out the ground outside the wall which kept the ground and wall at a higher temperature in winter than is the case now after their removal.
so condensation is the problem, but who can be sure with traditional spanish construction?
there are paints which claim to be "anti-condensation" which should solve this low-level problem, before considering either added insulation or mechanical ventilation.
I have not personally experienced the major problems suggested for additional walls forming cavities.
The nearest I have come to it has been with early cavity construction where it was introduced at foundation level and only carried up a few feet. No ventilation of the cavity was included and the lower level of external skin brickwork was damaged by long term damp. The soft red bricks used were perished on the faces.
Currently the UK is having all its cavaties insulation filled with no obvious ill-effects.
Regards
Norman
_______________________
N. Sands
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