still confused with RESIDENCIA rules

Yes,  once a person has been here 5 years they are permanent, but with the introduction of the EU Registration one needs to register,

NO! NO! NO!

You are totally misreading this. After 5 years legal residendce they have NO REQUIREMENT TO REGISTER ON ANYTHING AT ALL.

This is crystal clear from multiple official documents available online and in print. There is no doubt. None at all.

I also have no idea where you dredged up this bizarre idea that if a person who has been a legal resident for 5 years on an 'old' style Residencia does not register on the EU Citizens register within 3 months they have to re-justify their residence with proof of income, etc. That is absolute rubbish.  It has no basis in any law whatsoever. After 5 years permanent residence is UNCONDITIONAL. 

Please.... before posting more misleading 'information' at the very least download the full text of the directive and read it in full.

Just google 38/2004 EC and also the plain English guides to this published by the European Commission.

Ok 66,

             I think those who need to know will have made a decision about what they want to do.

So last word to you about what you believe.

It is not a question of what I believe... rather, it is a question of what the law is. As I have pointed out (multiple times) anyone can check this for themselves. It is all available online direct from official sources.

You seem to have no interest in verifying the facts, or even in reading the documents in question.

Hopefully, most forum users will "engage the grey cells" and actually read the material which is available for themselves rather than be continually misled by your own very odd "interpretations" of it and the various "inventions" of your own that you seem to delight in producing.

A plain English guidebook that explains all this very clearly can be downloaded from the main EU Commission website:

EU GUIDE TO FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS

In case of doubt, anyone is also free to ask questions via official channels, or to receive direct assistance.

Better that than be mis-directed by some of the drivel posted here.

This message was last edited by 66d35 on 11/09/2012.

Just in passing.  Looking at your reference it appears to refer the a 2004 Directive whereas the embassy's info refers to  2007

The 2007 reference is to the Royal Decree that implements the 2004 Directive......

OK just a thought. 

Seems that The British Embassy, they agree with the police view, have got it wrong :-

"If you are an EU citizen with a valid residency card, you do not need to do anything until your card expires. On expiry you must register at the Oficina de Extranjeros or designated police stations."

66d35   You are completely correct but wasting your time.

The EU law is perfectly plain & unequivocal . The 'citizen' from whatever country has the right to decide when & where he is resident & can use whatever means necessary to justify his permanent residency in excess of 5 years. It is the citizens right to choose where to become a permanent resident & the country has no rights to deny it , except on the grounds of public health, terrorism or anti-state activities.

The only thing that can be asked is that you register on the EU citizens register  & failing to apply to register incurs a, one-off,300€ fine. ( Only 59€ in Greece ) Spain is one of the few countries to require you to register. Failing to register/not meeting requirements etc;  does not allow you to be banned , deported, etc.

In the UK you can apply for a registration certificate, which includes the requirement that you can support yourself & family & have healthcare , but if your application fails  they cannot deport/ban/expel you , under EU rules; so they don't bother making you apply !!!

Eu rules take precedence over national country laws except if the national laws confer greater benefits.

The embassy site , as with most government sites , never state anything concrete & which they are prepared to stand & argue.

If you have problems issue denuncias, like I do, always ask for the hojas de reclamación . Use the EU Solvit to obtain correct advice & if you don't get anywhere use there system to instigate legal proceedings ; all done by them.

Seems that The British Embassy, they agree with the police view, have got it wrong :-

Gus-Lopez, in his post, has it absolutely right.

You (or anyone else) does not have to take my word for any of this. Read it for yourself.

ENGLISH VERSION

COUNSEL'S OPINION AND COMMENTARY ON ABOVE

(A review of the law by a barrister specialising in immigration law). See particularly paragraph 38 and then paragraph 43 onwards on permanent residence. This confirms precisely what I have said.

Note particularly paragraph 50:

50. Article 25 makes it plain that there is no requirement to have a registration certificate or a residence card prior to exercising a right under the Directive.

Basically all the spaniards are trying to do is limit, hopefully, the demands on the health system now that they have basically introduced a similar system to the UK.

Friend of mine got a certificate a couple of weeks back with a card that had  expired well over a year ago. Never asked for proof of income /healthcare either. They weren't entitled too anyway.

 "Failing to register/not meeting requirements etc;  does not allow you to be banned , deported, etc."

I understand this Guslopez but what if you are an EU citizen, been here more than 5 years, were employed on an "indefinido" contract, have NIE, Padron , Social security number etc but were told by a "legal" expert as a full time employee there was no need to register or obtain residencia therefore have neither of these papers. Then with unemployment you obtain legal unemployment benefits and are legally registered as unemployed how do you then for example obtain a spanish driving licence from Trafico if  they insist on a "residencia" or registration paperwork which you now have to prove funds and private health?

To have to apply for a registration certificate as a new arrival seems madness and potentially could be refused if someone in this situation couldnt prove sufficient funds due to unemployment etc.

I am sure Gus-Lopez will also respond shortly. My view on this however is that your situation is covered by Article 25 of Directive 38/2004 EC, paragraph 1:

1. Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof.

You will find this text on page 36 of the link to the Directive I posted previously.

I would advise contacting SOLVIT. You are a permanent resident, and are entitled to a certificate of proof. Trafico insisting on that, however as a precondtion for a driving license, also appears to breach the Directive as this is "the completion of an administrative formality". I would probably pursue that angle first.