Leaky roof.

We are having problems with water seeping through the sun terraces on the top floor apartments which need to be fixed. Does the community usually own and repair them or are they the property of the individual apartments.

I have a leasehold apartment in the UK and the long lease is very specific about what I am responsible for, e.g. the floorboards are mine but not the joists below and the plasterboard ceiling is mine but not the joists above. I own the windows but not the outside walls or roof.

Will I ifnd this information on the Nota Simple or some other document?

The administrator thinks it might be an insurance claim but I think it is just wear and tear but as no one from the insurers has turned up I am looking into costs of having the work done ourselves if all else fails.

Crikey who told you that about joists and floorboards??  That's not something I recognise as good advice.  In simplified terms.

the rule of thumb is usually the envelope and structure of the building, which includes roof and drainage, is part of the owners responsibility to maintain and will form a service charge over the life of the lease.  You are allowed to decorate inside and work inside, walls and ceilings, lift and replace floorboards for heating pipes etc, but you should inform the owner prior to work commencing.

any repairs through your own damage are your responsibility, any envelope and structure replacement through normal wear and tear should be theirs.  Check if you have a full repair lease in place, that can be a difference.    

you own a lease, they own a property.    

There are ground rent only leases too, which means you are responsible for all the property but pay a rent to the owners of the land

Hi Brian,

The leaky roof and sun terraces are here in Spain, I was trying to emphasise that I know exactly what I am responsible for on my property in the UK but am trying to find out where to get the same information with regards to the Spanish property.

The business about floorboards and joists was not advice by the way, it actually states that in my uk lease.

Antonio The administrator thinks it might be an insurance claim but I think it is just wear and tear but as no one from the insurers has turned up I am looking into costs of having the work done ourselves if all else fails.

If the admin think it is covered by  insurance then I would suggest you follow that up. You do not say if you contacted the insurers.  From what you say it would appear no one has.  

Johnzx, the administrator was initially contacted over two weeks ago by the President about. This was followed up by emails and phone calls from the Vice President and also a visit to the Administrator by the owners whose property has been damaged.

The Administrator says the insurers have not got back to him as yet. We are going to see him tomorrow and ask that he contacts the insurers by phone while we are there. 

Good luck Antonio for tomorrow.

Ah Antonio, I misread your first post I thought you said you owned the floorboards and ceilings, but you said you were responsible for.   Beg your pardon, that's correct.   

Your house will have had windows when built but of course if they have been replaced you will own them, until you move house (because you won't be able to take them with you). 

The roof in a complex of flats is different though, it's a structural element which I guess covers more than one flat.  Any repair will be shared among all the properties in that structure, or part of a maintenance program in the lease.  

If it's leaking because of an event, like damage, it's to be fixed by the property leaseholders and possibly through insurance if accidental.   

If it's because it was not fixed properly it should be fixed by the owners or landlords, as a latent defect.   Flat roof drain outlets are notoriously bad at sealing to roofs for example.   These are part of the landlords responsibility if they haven't been damaged by you.  

They are my little observations if they help at all.   Good luck. 

Antonio, Brian seems to commenting on UK property rules/law, when you asking about property in Spain. Specifically:-   problems with water seeping through the sun terraces on the top floor apartments which need to be fixed.

The laws in each country are in many cases very different and thus, what is appropriate in one country very seldom corresponds with that in the other.  

An getting my days mixed, up, the meeting with the administrator is tomorrow and I will need luck Johnxz so thanks for the wishes.

I managed to get access to the roof and had a good look around. The first obvious thing was a leak from the roof covering the staircase which seems to be allowing water to pass between the inner and outer wall down to the next level which is the void between the floor of the sun terrace and the ceilings below. Cracks in the grouting between the terracotta tiles will also not have helped as I found the drains running sluggishly which I have now hosed through.

Another neighbour told me she almost had a flood into her apartment from the balcony as the volume of rain was not draining as quickly as it was falling and  it rained almost on and off for 3 days she said.

Will see how it goes tomorrow with the administrator but have also got some builders coming round independantly to give estimates just in case.

I suspect the roof has never been able to cater with  extreme rain events but the aim will be to see what needs to be done to cater for the majority of them ( a bit like flood defences)

Antonio:  Just a point on the grouting. 

If the construction was completed correctly there should be an impermeable layer under the screed that the floor tiles are set in.  If so then the grouting would never be the problem.

Johnxz, re the construction, that is a very big if! The membrane should also go up the wall a bit. Each sun terrace has a wall about 3ft high around the edge and does not extend to the edge of the roof so there is another corridor with a lower wall around the whole perimeter which again should have the membrane lapped up the wall.

I also though regrouting would help if there are any small puntures in the membrane.

When I expect really heavy rain or go away, I have learnt I must remove the covers from the 3 terrace drains (100 sq mtrs terrace plus rainwater spill from the roofs).   A design fault means they cannot cope.

John X said.  

Antonio, Brian seems to commenting on UK property rules/law, when you asking about property in Spain. Specifically:-   problems with water seeping through the sun terraces on the top floor apartments which need to be fixed.

The laws in each country are in many cases very different and thus, what is appropriate in one country very seldom corresponds with that in the other.  

Yes that's right I am.  It's part of recognised leases over here, I do know that it varies from place to place, but it's common law in the U.K. 

Perhaps John has some knowledge and can suggest a more accurate answer?   

The first and last example of advice will always be 'what does it say in your lease'.   

Brian:   The first and last example of advice will always be 'what does it say in your lease'.   

I understood from Antonio's post that he is the owner,  if so leases have no relevance to the question.

Brian:   It's part of recognised leases over here  (UK ?)  .......  but it's common law in the U.K. ; 

‘Common Law’  does not apply I believe to leases even in the UK  it would be statute law or civil law.  But as Antionio is asking about Spain again, no relevance I think.

Hi John.  

Is it the case in Spain that you can own a property which stands above another property?   I can't understand any law that permits you to own in those circumstances because the land is then owned twice, but I'm sure you know best, being in Spain.     If Antonio is an outright owner, why ask a question at all?

in the UK (over here) all land is owned by the crown, which is common law (the base law on which all laws build from, civil law being mainly common law and statute being written through parliament for example) although (over here) you are allowed to buy and sell property on a 'hold' basis (leasehold, freehold).  

Case law can be established at the end of a judgement and can apply to either, the latest common law addition to the hold / ownership would be 'tenants in common' for example.  

Perhaps you can assist Antonio in more detail if you have some Spanish knowledge?  

John your comments are often most useful but please don't join the "Barrack-room lawyers Я Us" brigade.

Opps this was intended as a PM

In my experience the lifetime of roof mebranes is typically less than what manufacturers suggest. You can extend this lifetime by regularly coating it with suitable waterproof paint.

If there is a terrace on top with tiles, the membrane needs to be sufficiently sturdy to support this. Lose tiles can lead to a gradual wearing down and puncturing of the membrane underneath, and because the membrane is hidden under the tile, you probably won't notice until it is too late.

Good drainage is also important. If rainwater doesn't run off efficiently and quickly, it is more likely to seep through punctures and get where it shouldn't be. Drains need to be cheked and cleaned regularly and the drain entrance should not be blocked by furniture or plant pots. My dad had upstairs neighbours who did precisely this without realizing it, so don't assume that others have common sense.

Insurance assessors turned up today so now just wait and see if it is covered!

Cheers Amogles, sounds like it is worth regrouting to prevent further damage to membrane, I know quite often they are pierced as they are laid so anything to keep water away is a good plan

Antonio.  This is  plan of one way to lay tiles to ensure a waterproof finish

Note:   The green lines are the waterproof membrane, which is under the mortar bed and thus unlikely to be damaged, by loose tiles etc., after construction, and defective grouting would not affect it's impermeably.

This message was last edited by johnzx on 13/12/2016.