Warning! I do not recommend Ocean Estates

No Fruitbat you are absolutely correct. Until around mid november the FLO didnt actually matter - banks would lend regardless and lawyers diodnt worry about it either

Now we have a situation where banks will not lend unless there is an LFO - and it is the valuer who asls for it.

We only used to ask for a nota simple (simplified copy of the escritura) but now the first question we ask before taking a property on is is there an LFO.

Any agent worth his salt would do so!

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I have heard Ocean Estates have been taken over and have new owners - maybe they will at least attempt to be more ethical in the future.

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This message was last edited by JeansSis on 5/16/2007.

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Fruitbat, any solid news on that takeover?

Who would want to take over their name with all it's Bad Press associations, their nickname Awful Estates etc?

They must be the single main reason for the horror property stories coming out of the Costas and now Turkey.

If it's true, will the MacDonalds, Saxby, Lister, the not so nice Blagden etc, re-invent themselves somewhere else, and have they milked that Costa cow dry?

I still wouldn't trust that name ever again even with new owners.

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Hi Rixxy a significant number of lenders would not lend without old FLO (I prefer it that way round) a long time before November my darling - I have been here three and a half years and to my certain knowledge there were at least 3 banks that would not advance without it - even if it was only silencio - the same three lenders stopped advancing even on silencio in May 05 when the Junta announced it was no longer accepted practice in Marbella

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In reference Ocean I am hearing (allegedly) there are talks with Livingstone but its only JUngle telegraph and this is the CDS so could be total bollox

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Correct me if I'm wrong - and here I go again! - but when people buy off-plan (and then sell their contract before completion, if possible) - there is hardly ever an LFO.  One would like to think that the banks' lending principles obviously take LFO's into account (or obviously do NOW), so that nobody should complete without it.

So, if someboy wants to sell their off-plan purchase before completion (also before the LFO has been issued) what are they to do???  Selling properties which are  "ready to move into" but without LFO's obviously happens (as I have read on this forum), but shouldn't the criteria be defined?  Surely, it's up to the purchaser to check out the developer, etc., and make sure that the LFO will most definitely be granted at some point, as far as is possible in Spain!!!??  We do, in England and Wales, have Land Registry Searches that provide us with such details as we require to proceed with a purchase.

Yet again, we seem to be slagging off some body for doing something that is widely done!  Anywhere in the world - in Dubai, we don't even have that sort of protection!!!  Not that I'm comparing, but what is the law regarding "selling" properties already built and ready for occupation and selling "off plan" properties, which may, in fact, be near completion but without LFO's?  We saw our apartment last year, in August, just before the LFO had been issued and it was  ready for occupation!  The Licence hadn't been issued for obvious reasons - there were other elements involved, other blocks, communal areas, etc.

We just completed lasted month and we have been lucky - and Ocean Estates are doing the snagging for us!!  Well, we shall be there in a few weeks and can chase that up ourselves, but, so far, they have been absolutely fine.

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm promoting an agent you don't approve of, but they've done good by us, so far, and I think that also has to be put forward.

I'll be the first here to post something negative against them if they prove themselves to be that way.

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Hi Pitby as an off planner you arent actually buying the property - you are buying the contract - that is exactly what the second buyer is doing when buying the contract - it is a binding contract and ties you to buying the property but until complete there is no property to buy - additionally there will be no FLO - Land Registry searches as you know them in the UK largely dont exist in Spain. many lawyers here also do not act in the same fashion as they would be required to do in the UK. Hence all these poor buggars who have ended up wearing contracts which are effectively in limbo - the correct procedures have not been followed either by agent or by the lawyer to check the development is all licenced correctly to ensure there will be no impairment to the title at completion. Dont think anyone was slagging off Ocean specifically on that issue - it just happens to have cropped up on this thread. Unfortunately its all too difficult for a purchaser to check out a developer but as they are the person paying the lawyers fees and ultimately they are also the client of the estate agent who is going to earn a commission from the sale one would hope that either one or both would do "due diligence" to ensure they were selling "saleable goods".

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Hi Smiley .- well this was certainly news to me but then I dont dabble in your world!! Never had finance refused before and the first time anyone ever asked for an LFO was in november by the valuer for UCI.

 

To the rest re Ocean, Im sure they have had numerous satisfied customers and after all if you bought a property for the price you were happy with, then that was the correct price.

I know some insider info as a pal of mines father was owed money and was passed over a certain amount of shares in the company as compensation, and it has been reported the Macdonalds (Oceans owners) sold out to a UK investment group headed by Clive Saxby!

See, maybe blonde but still got plenty of sharp marbles!

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I just spent half an hour replying to your post, Smiley, and then lost it!!!  Somehow!!  But just to very quickly recap, I know what you're saying, and realise that lots of people have been ripped off - but we have to lay down the line as to whose responsibility it is?!!  Come on, if an agent in the UK was accused of doing what Ocean had done then they would be sued left, right and centre, yes?  And, to date, I haven't seen proof of anyone actually suing Ocean Estates.  So, this thread is actually about Ocean and I would like to see somebody step up and say, yes, we have sued Ocean and here are our grounds!  That's all I'm saying!  If you are selling an off-plan/nearly complete property, the buyer has to take responsibility as well.  It may be you don't have the same "legal" checks as you do in the UK (and you certainly have no rights at all here in Dubai!!!), but you have to figure that in to the buying process.

I think it's important, before slagging off a company, to actually have substantial, sustainable proof that you have a right to do so and that you can carry that through the legal process if required.  If it were my business, or yours, I'm sure we would all want the same!!

And that is a totally different response to the first message I posted  - but cannot for the life of me remember it word for word!!!

So, it's 11.50 my time and I'm off to bed!!

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Night night Jan

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Night, night, Rixxy - I'm off!!

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Speak as you find.I bought through ocean estates 2 yrs ago and had no problems.mind you the agent who sold me the property was very good .However no longer works for ocean...maybe something in that ??

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Pitby, aka Jan, I know of quite a lot of  Ocean's clients who would willingly have sued them had they not already had several years of stress with their off-plans already, and, if the Spanish legal system wasn't going to take 5 years to go to Court.

Incidentally, Ocean have not sued the Sunday Times over any of the 4 expose articles they conclusively proved about their mis-selling, nor the Mail on Sunday, the S. Times also stopped taking their advertising, and Your Move one of the largest UK agents, dropped them last year. Happens too often with them to be untrue, too much baggage.

How the hell could they be so dumb as to put in writing (even to John Arlidge) on numerous occasions that 95% of investors properties are re-sold prior to completion, who also proved their whacking 30% commission mark up on off-plans?

As for the blonde dwarf taking them over, I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him based on my experiences of him, they will never be trusted again by many who've dealt with them before.

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Scambuster, (don't actually like referring to you as that, but what the hey!!), I do realise that there are many who feel they have been ripped off by Ocean (as other agents), and I have already read the reports, that I have been able to, about their ethics, which I believe are shared by many other agents, not just Ocean.  NOBODY should be ripped off by anybody, in any field - period!  But it happens.

What I have said all along - bearing in mind Ocean have been accused, it could be translated, of criminal intent by certain people - is that if they were involved, intentionally, in defrauding people into buying properties on land which was not licenced for such purposes then why haven't they been brought to justice?  I realise the legal process anywhere in the world can be lengthy - but why have they not been prosecuted by the public prosecution - not private - if they were guilty of a crime????

Agents cannot be held responsible for delays in build, etc. - again, that happens, ours has been delayed by nearly a year!  They also cannot be asked to refund commission, because since when is their contract with the buyer for commission - it's with the vendor!  So they cannot, feasibly (although ethically is another matter) refund commission to anyone who has been caught up in any questionable deal  because it wasn't the purchaser who paid their commission, it was the developer.

I certainly don't want to argue with anybody about any agent - and I get angry when I read about people losing loads of money in dodgey developments - but, as I said before, I consider libeling a company a pretty serious occupation.  But then I haven't lost a lot of money through buying through that company - but I would look at the "chain of possession" to find out who I felt was at fault and responsible!

I  don't' want to argue, but at the end of the day, as Mickyc1 said, speak as you find .....

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Pitby says: What I have said all along - bearing in mind Ocean have been accused, it could be translated, of criminal intent by certain people - is that if they were involved, intentionally, in defrauding people into buying properties on land which was not licenced for such purposes then why haven't they been brought to justice?  I realise the legal process anywhere in the world can be lengthy - but why have they not been prosecuted by the public prosecution - not private - if they were guilty of a crime????

Well I can assure you, if we had the money and our health could take the stress of another 3 year battle, we would  have LOVED to have bought Ocean Estates to account. It is just not viable.  They have probably not been sued by public prosecution in Spain because.........it's Spain!!!! They would have been prosecuted in the UK, I'm sure.

Their  (OE) staff turnover is huge. The s*** who we dealt with has left the company(so we're told) . How would we trace him?
The developer told us we had to pay the commission and that it would be deducted from our 30% deposit which equated to 15% of the purchase price! (That didn't happen as we took action against the developer for a full refund of our money ) So to say the commission is between the developer & agent, try telling the developer that!

The only way to get a tiny bit of justice against Ocean Estates and others like them, IMO, is to give them as much bad publicity as is humanly possible. I think scambuster does a good job!!

This message was last edited by Tish on 3/7/2007.

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Thanks Tish for your last para supporting the job I do. I will continue to publicise their dodgy ethics as well as those of a few other less reputable agents, developers and lawyers on the Costas.

What you have said is spot on based on our experiences of them and the ridiculous so called justice procedure in Spain, and yes, Spain is not interested in Public Prosecution of scammers in real estate because of the huge revenues earned from Property.

Not arguing with you Jan (Pitby) but I disagree totally with you about your view on them, but I really am 'speaking as I find' based on not only my experiences but also those of 1000's of others who've been 'ripped off' in Spain, (not all by Ocean by the way).

The dirty washing needs to be aired publicly.

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For anyone interestd Im just back from lunch (well that bit isnt interesting) and a good thing on the coast here is everyone knows everyone. I usually keep cards close to my chest and head down and quiet - yes really BUT

Ocean ISNT totally owned by Clive Saxby. He has 20% shares in it. Another person has 60% (not naming names as he is a pal but the company records will show who he is and he is a very genuine guy - just dont think he realises what he has got into) Pablo Anderson of Anderson lawyers ownes 15% and another chap - cant remember the name has 5%

Will be interesting to see what happens now they are looking at other countries!!

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sORRY PÌTBY I HAD AN ANSWER FOR YOU RE OCEAN NOT THAT I HAVE SLAGGED THEM OFF PERSONALLY - BUT IT HAS ALREADY BEEN COVERED - WHERE CLIENTS HAVE HAD A REFUND OF DEPOSITS PAID BY THE DEVELOPER THE COMMISSION PAID TO THE AGENT HAS BEEN DEDUCTED BEFORE THE REFUND - TRY GETTING THAT BACK FROM OCEAN - WHILE THEY MAY NOT HAVE ACTED ILLEGALLY AND WERE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ILLEGAL BUILDS ETC THEY DO NOT APPEAR TO HAVE FOLLOWED THE SAME DUTY OF CARE AS SOME OF THEIR COMPETITION WHEN CHECKING THAT THE CORRECT LEGAL PROCEDURES WERE FOLLOWED BY SOME OF THE SITES THEY WERE PROMOTING - AGREED MANY OF THEIR COMPETITORS WERE SIMILARLY FLAWED AND I AM NOT SINGLING OCEAN OUT. YES YOU HAVE HAD AN EXTREMELY FAVOURABLE EXPERIENCE BUT IT APPEARS YOU ALWAYS INTENDED TO TAKE OWNERSHIP - I HAVE HAD INVESTORS (FLIPPERS) WHOSE PROPERTIES WERE NOT BEING MARKETED BY THEM FOR SALE - PROBLEM WAS THEY WERE GETTING SIGNIFICANTLY  MORE COMMISSION FROM THE DEVELOPER THAN FROM THE INVESTOR SO WHERE DID THE INCENTIVE LIE TO SELL THE INVESTORS PROPERTY. I HAVE HEARD IT ALLEGED THAT THE SECURITY BLANKET OF FREE TITLE INSURANCE WITH EVERY PROPERTY IS ALSO A FLAWED GIMMICK TO GIVE BUYERS A SENSE IF SECURITY AS SOMETHING THEY ARE NOT GETTING ANYWHERE ELSE BUT PERHAPS SCAMBUSTER OR TISH CAN ENLIGHTEN US ON THAT ONE.

POINT I AM MAKING IS, YES YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THEM HAS BEEN SUPERB AND A GREAT MANY OTHERS - YOU WERE AN END USER - THEY HAVE LEFT AN AWFUL LOT OF INVESTORS IN THE LURCH AND GIVEN THEM FALSE PROMISES ABOUT TURNING PROPERTIES FOR PROFIT - YES I AGREE THE BUYER HAS SOME RESPONSIBILITY AND IT IS A BUYER BEWARE SITUATION BUT A GREAT DEAL OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE HAS TARNISHED THE MARKETS REPUTATION HERE - AND AGAIN THIS DOESNT ONLY APPLY TO OCEAN. THERE ARE A GREAT MANY OTHER AGENTS OUT THERE WHO AT THE SAME TIME AS SELLING WARN CLIENTS THAT YES THIS CAN BE DONE AND HISTORICALLY THE MARKET HAS BEEN GOOD BUT AT THE SAME TIME PROPERTY MARKETS ARE CYCLICAL - SOME OF THE AGENTS WERE TELLING UK INVESTORS (PLUS OTHERS I IMAGINE) THAT THE GRAVY TRAIN WAS STILL RUNNING AND USING OUTDATED ILLUSTRATIONS OF GROWTH WAY WAY AFTER THE MARKET HAD STOPPED ITS EXPONENTIAL GROWTH. PERSONALLY I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT MONEY INVESTED IN THE CDS WILL SEE A GOOD RETURN - ULTIMATELY - BUT THERE WILL BE A PERIOD OF PAIN FOR THOSE THAT HAVE ENDED UP WITH A PROPERTY (OR MANY MORE THAN ONE IN SOME INSTANCES) THAT THEY ARE HAVOING TO SUPPORT. I CONCUR THAT THEIR GREED (AND WE ARE ALL GREEDY TO A DEGREE) HAS GOT THEM INTO THIS MESS BUT CERTAIN COMPANIES WERE ONLY TOO HAPPY TO FUEL THAT GREED AND INSTEAD OF TELLING PEOPLE TO WALK THEY WERE TELLING THEM TO RUN AT FULL SPRINT - WHY BUY ONE WHEN YOU CAN BUY 5, WE WILL SELL 4 FOR YOU AND PROFITS WILL PAY FOR THE 5TH.

GOD WHAT A DIATRIBE - WILL GET OFF MY SOAPBOX NOW 

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Smiley, I understand and agree with what you are saying.  We have been extremely lucky (as have MANY others) - and also, we put alot of research into what we were investing alot of our hard earned money into.   It's atrocious that people are taken in by agents' misguided/totally false claims when venturing into a substantial investment (and whether you want it to live in or rent, it's still an investment).

Ocean obviously has a bad reputation, and maybe it's justified, but we will always hear the bad stories more than the good - fact of life!  Every large company will have rogue agents trying to make the sales figures to get their commissions - again, fact of life.  Maybe Ocean has more "rogue agents" than other agents - I don't know.   And if they were involved in selling property off-plan, knowing that that property would never be licenced (as has been alleged herein) then, I, for one, will never use or recommend their services again and would like to see them prosecuted.

To be honest, I'm not concerned with people who invested to get a "good return" rentwise or otherwise on their property - it's those who actually don't have a property to show for their investment that makes me wonder!  If Ocean, or any other agent, has got away with selling property which will never be licenced for habitation (or build), how have they got away with it???  That's my whole query - why haven't they been prosecuted and why are they still in business?!!  If they were involved in the Malaya scandal (hope that spelling's right!!) , as has been alleged here, why weren't they prosecuted?  That's all I'm saying!  And, here is where I must be totally naive, but I don't believe they weren't prosecuted for a crime they committed because "it's Spain!!".

But maybe, because I have a legal background, I have a little too much faith in the legal process wherever it is in the world - I'm still gobsmacked each day with what happens in this part of the world, so I shouldn't be so surprised really!!

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