Should you complete without a habitation certificate?

I dont understand Maria why any transmission of property can be allowed in Spain without COMPULSORY requirement for legal licences to be in place from the outset.

Why is this not being addressed in Spain?

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Vince 74 Warning do not buy any property in Spain without all the legal papers you will need to have the Escutura = deeds /License of first occupation=property is fit to live in/Fin de Obra =completed building works /make sure all the services are connected Warning do not listen to the bullshit from anyone that all the paperwork will follow on in a few week's just ask anyone of the 4,500 Masa built properties on Camposol that have not got a occupation licence The local council are refusing to issue licences until all the infrastructure is Finished.

A benefit of the EU should be protection of property rights across member states, but sadly the EU treaty currently prevents this as it has been deemed dependent on self regulation by the member state in question (in this case Spain).

Therefore all ongoing relevant and legitimate concerns relating to property rights in Spain, such as identified on this thread, need to be URGENTLY forwarded to your MP and MEP's via www.writetothem.com with the suggestion that this requires immediate attention by both the EU Commission and the UK Government (ask your MP to forward your concerns to Rt Hon David Lidington MP Minister of State for Europe)..

The rallying cry should go out for far more effective and standardised monitoring and complaints procedures to be put in place by member states (in this case Spain), the EU Commission and UK Governments alike than currently exist, to ensure that compromising property rights issues across member states are fully recognised in a fair timely and consistent manner, with effective remedial strategies in place to counter continuing abuse.

I know that it's time consuming and equally frustrating, but only when you all educate, make your voices and concerns repeatedly heard to the powers that be, will any reform of the EU be forthcoming so that these compromising and stressful ongoing issues that remain unresolved will ever be effectively tackled.

To repeat, there has never been a better time than now to bring these ongoing problems to the attention of the powers that be, given the sensitivities relating to the EU referendum and the requirement to tackle issues in dire need of reform.

The only way to bring about change is DO NOT BUY without all the legal papers this will soon bring the corupt system to a halt ,and the spanish goverment will soon bring in the changes when the property market grinds to a halt .

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED DONT BUY A PROPERTY WITHOUT ALL THE LEGAL PAPERS.

The only way to bring about change is DO NOT BUY without all the legal papers this will soon bring the corrupt system to a halt ,and the spanish goverment will soon bring in the changes when the property market grinds to a halt .

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED DONT BUY A PROPERTY WITHOUT ALL THE LEGAL PAPERS.

I understand your tactic Windtalker but not every prospective purchaser of Spanish Property is a member of eyeonspain unfortunately, and there are still many in ignorance of these realities, hence the need for everyone affected to report back these uncomfortable facts and strive for essential reform of a system that fails to protect purchasers from the outset via a compulsory mechanism that would better safeguard transmission of property.

Delaying reform will only perpetuate the problems as more and more become compromised by a system that still "allows" transference of property without legal licence in place, nor will it assist those who for whatever reason and through no fault of their own continue to be denied licences (or compensation), nor for those who continue to be compromised by lack of professional due diligence.

Surely its in everyone's interest to push in the interim for a failsafe mechanism, not solely reliant upon professional due diligence, so long as Bar Associations and Notarial Associations fail miserably to denounce their members who bring their profession into disrepute!!!

There is no doubt whatever that you are technically right Ads, but perhaps doing a "devils advocate" thing here, for an established community, are they actually necessary?!!!

A week a go Windtaker mentioned there are 4,500 dwellings on Camposol all of which all have mains connections - water, electricity and are billed for IBI and all properties sell in the local market (well as good as any others), so what benefit would benefit would a Habitation certificate bring?

Windtaker's comment was that his property wasn't "legal" - but Mazarron council paid for the new bridge to replace the one that was washed away in the storm a while ago, they collect rubbish and provide police and fire services as you would expect.  So what difference would a Habitation certificate make?

There are thousands of properties in Murcia without a a Habitation certificate, all being happily used without any problem.  So does it really matter?

Acer

pp Devil

Just to remind you again we did all the research to make sure we were doing ther correct things when purchasing out property in Spain. The Estate Agents who worked for Atlas, showed us several places, the last day of our trip they took us to the apartment block we purchsed in. Telling us that the apartment we bought was thre last one on the ground floor. being in our 60s we decided the Ground floor to be best.

We liked the apartment very much and still do but did not expect The Lawyer & Notary would also tel us everything was in order when we completed in February 2008. If we do eventually get the Road Built by the council because we have handed it over to the to finish as they require. This was settled 2 years ago still no road built but the surounding roads have been repaired when we went out late last year. 

The main highway outside our Build is never cleaned, the Machine stops at the building next door. Our Build is at the end of the Village and until we get the Habitation Certificate we are considered as outside the village zone. The Building was passed as legal several years ago, but thelocal council are still dragging their feed as they have done over the last 9 years. They just keep holding back which is what the Spanish Governing offices in the area seem to enjoy.

We have no HC or FOL yet 6 of the original purchasers have sold on and moved away. and 2 thirds of the apartments are still unsold. so it is very peaceful place to be if you like the peace.

Poedoe,

Obviously the detail of your situation is unknown, but there are literally thousands of properties in Spain which are happily lived in which don't have a Habitation certificate.  It seems a terrible situation, but given the circumstances, why don't you and the others do the same? 

Is it not possible to make contact with the others, form a group and agree a date to do so?  At the very least you might increase the profile of your situation and embarrass the authorities into some action.  Or you all just move in quietly.  But working together may be worth trying as you can make more noise if you need to.

Acer, I understand what you are saying but to have a habitation licence system in place to ensure property is fully legal and entitled to all the benefits of being deemed legal, and then to suggest its not required for some, who for whatever reason have been denied them, makes a complete mockery of having a regulatory system in the first place.

Sadly its essential to have such "controls" in Spain as all too many have found to their cost. If there's nothing illegal with these properties then why the heck dont the authorities provide them with a licence? It doesn't stack up I'm afraid.

It even begs the ironic question are the authorities acting illegally themselves by not ensuring that licences are administered in a timely manner?

Such are the consequences of perpetuating a system where a blind eye is turned to ignoring essential regulatory controls put in place to curb abuse, to ignoring the requirement to provide adequate resources necessary for timely administration, to ignoring the need for a mandatory system to fully safeguard transmission of property from the outset, and ignoring the rights of those compromised by all of the above failures! It shouldn't have to be like this!!!!!

Ads, I think you and I are on the same side, but perhaps not with your comment "...then to suggest... makes a complete mockery of having a regulatory system in the first place".

The system is already a mockery, or perhaps better described as a farce and that won't change.  But what happens next?

I've seen it estimated that around 10,000 dwellings in Murcia alone without Habitiation certificates and it seems most have little or no prospect of changing their status.  But many owners, like on Camposol, do not seem at all bothered.

This has been going on for at least 20 years and there does not seem to be any intention by the authorities to take any action.

I'm not vaguely belittling the ordeal of the few like Pardoe whose position for some reason seems different.  Or for others who want the comfort or the correct status for their dwelling.

I'm just posing the question, as devil's advocate - if the properties are all happily occupied and receiving mains services, with no threat of anything untoward from the government, can be bought and sold without restriction, etc etc - does it matter? 

In 10 years time will the situation be any different for the majority?  Will the authorities have taken any action?

I believe the answer is - probably not.

I am a firm believer in not picking up fag ends because they burn and I haven't read the entire thread so don't hang me out to dry if I have missed a vital element.

Personally I am of the opinion that nobody should complete without the habitation certificate - if a Spanish mortgage lender (with of course their own legal representation) considers it too risky then why would it not be considered risk free for a non resident purchaser. If the banks are lending on properties without the complete paper trail in Murcia they are not complying with Bank of Spain directives. Certainly they would not on the Costa del Sol.

As to the general situation as to whether its a good idea or not to complete without 100% confirmation of legality, here in Marbella we have had our own issues with non-compliance with the 1986 PGOU (Urban plan). In 2010 the Marbella town hall in conjunction with the Junta de Andalucia decided to legalise the great number of properties that were not on the PGOU - fines and sanctions were imposed and settled and barring 1500 of the previously 18,500 illegally constructed dwellings everything was thought to be fine and dandy.

November 2015 the Supreme Court ruled that the agreement reached between Town Hall and Junta was in fact illegal and all of a sudden 18,500 properties are again at risk so some 7 - 8 years after everything was thought to be resolved a huge cloud is again manifesting itself. Banks again refusing to lend on property if it falls outside the 1986 PGOU!   

Smiley, in theory no-one in their right mind would complete a purchase without the habitiation certificate.  That will never be in dispute.

But the fact remains that a massive number of property owners have done so.  A lot unwittingly through a lack of research or being let down by their solicitor, or made promises that were unfullfilled.  A few were obliged to complete to safeguard their deposit(s) when the contractor was going bust.

But my question goes beyond that.

Good informative post Smiley.

The whole area of property rights issues across member states is in dire need of review to be honest, hence I keep harping on of the need for Spain to adhere to the rule of law to the longer term benefit of all.

The principles are so relevant to this thread:

1. The government and its officials and agents as well as individuals and private entities are accountable under the law.
2. The laws are clear, publicized, stable, and just; are applied evenly; and protect fundamental rights, including the security of persons and property and certain core human rights.
3. The process by which the laws are enacted, administered, and enforced is accessible, fair, and efficient.
4. Justice is delivered timely by competent, ethical, and independent representatives and neutrals who are of sufficient number, have adequate resources, and reflect the makeup of the communities they serve.

Regulatory Enforcement

Factor 6 measures the extent to which regulations are fairly and effectively implemented and enforced. Regulations, both legal and administrative, structure behaviors within and outside of the government. Strong rule of law requires that these regulations and administrative provisions are enforced effectively (6.1) and are applied and enforced without improper influence by public officials or private interests (6.2). Additionally, strong rule of law requires that administrative proceedings are conducted timely, without unreasonable delays (6.4), that due process is respected in administrative proceedings (6.3), and that there is no expropriation of private property without adequate compensation (6.5).

Ads, I don't blame you fo keep on bagging your drum, but what you are seeking ain't going to happen.

In UK we always expect the government to follow the laws of the land, but I believe the government in Spain has dug themselves a hole that they cannot escape from, so they're likely to do nothing.  As Windtaker says they'll give a half baked reason to justify their stance - I believe it was "the need to complete the infrastructure" for Camposol, but by all accounts that's probably never going to happen.

Having lived in Spain for 13 years (which by no means makes me an expert) I am inclined to agree in principle with Acer's last comment (in general as opposed to specific to Camposol) in that the Spanish Govt (whatever is stated in constitutional law) will follow the path that suits them best (and I am talking both sides of the political arena). While logic would dictate a certain path was followed theoretically, in practice this doesnt actually happen. 

Case in point being the illegal interest rate "floor" applied by so many mortgage lenders. Having fought and lost the case in court, many borrowers have struggled to receive compensation from the banks and still do. In the UK obviously a mortgage lender would be instructed to notify all borrowers that they had been "ripped off" by law - the UK is a regulated market and lenders subject to heavy penalties for non-compliance. In Spain where all financial services are unregulated the rule that lenders seem to be following is that if you know about it and discover it make a claim.....

Not that its relevant to the plight at Camposol but it demonstrates the "philosophy"   

While regulations and laws are what they are we all know that the law is an ass and that in general Govts everywhere are more concerned about self interest than fairness to the people they govern - this is probably even more the case in Spain than other European countries.

Even more reason to be proactive by bringing the relevant instances that you refer to, to the attention of the EU Commission and Justice Minister via your MEPs (www.writetothem.com) .

Change wont happen until everyone takes proactive action to bring the need for Spain to adhere to the rule of law to the attention of the EU Commission who issued a mission statement relating to adherence to the rule of law, so they cannot ignore it.

Non regulation of Banks, non adherence to existing regulatory controls relating to habitation licence, non adherence to timely justice, to lack of provision/resources to ensure core rights are respected etc, all link directly to the rule of law.  

Given the sensitivities, there's never a better time than now to bring this to the attention of the EU Commission, especially by those who have first hand knowledge of the ongoing vulnerabilities and abuses.

I would agree that all who have suffered as a result of negligent or even worse possibly corrupt developers, politicians and the like should be encouraged to address their concerns and complaints to their MEP. However as a pragmatist I am inclined to think that it is unlikely to get them very far and it will be a long hard slog. 

The Spanish Govt have demonstrated many times that if a pan European law doesn't suit national philosophy they will blatantly ignore it. Prime example being the smoking ban in indoor public places and offices. Widely ignored for the first two/three years the Spanish then implemented their own interpretation and decreed that the ban should only be enforced in buildings over a specific square meterage. The people that were directed to enforce the law were the local police - many of whom are themselves smokers - who would be expected to "shop" their local stop off points where they would stop for a brandy and smoke........not exactly ideal. This has of course changed and inspectors were appointed with this being their specific role but it was extremely unpopular and (non-smoking) restaurant owners suffered very serious fines and sanctions as it was felt that it should be the choice of the proprietor.

How is this relevant you ask - not at all. It is merely to demonstrate that after nearly 50 years of dictatorship under Franco there is a general disregard for authority and being told that they must conform........as a non-conformist myself I acually like this philosophy on life but it has far reaching consequences because my personal opinion is that Brussels is considered an inconvenient insect to be ignored where at all possible.

As I say I would encourage people to voice their complaints but at the same time I would temper that with the view that it could very well be a fruitless waste of time and expectations should not be high and any result be considered a bonus. 

Since when was the smoking indoors rule an EU directive? They are national regulations.

Back to the "blame everything on the EU" argument.

I stand corrected Mariedav and I apologise. I seem to recall the media here in 09/10 were making much of the fact that in spite of robust opposition to the ban it was as a result of an EU directive - so I am pleased to learn that the Spanish smoking ban is one thing that can't be laid at the door of Brussels.

Doesn't change the fact that owners of hospitality venues - clubs, restaurants etc incurred serious fines and even enforced closures until they complied - because they don't like being told what to do and that is the point I am trying to make.