Why ?? ??

Unfortunately it helps if you are a man taking things back in Spain. I took a dress back to a shop as it was too small, the next size up was too big. The best they could do was offer me a "vale", my dad walked into the shop two minutes later and he demanded a refund and they did it.

Susan

I saw the EOS Team avatar next to the above message, and assumed it was from Justin!  It wasn't until I saw Susan's name at the end of the post, that I realised cross-dressing did not apply!  Off-topic I know, but it made me smile! 

merrylegs

 ......perhaps Justin and Susan are the same person really, but Justin only becomes 'Susan' on special occasions

Customer service hasn´t always been that great in the UK but I have to admit over the past six years when I return it has generally got a lot better across the board but admittedly this is my experience in big chains. In Spain there are still many independent shops so I guess that is why they are more reluctant to give refunds. In a store like Corte Ingles, they will be more "no quibble" as it doesn´t come out of the sales assistant´s pocket. It all depends on your expectations about what qualifies good customer service. What is important to one person is less important to another. For me as I don´t enjoy trying clothes on in shop fitting rooms, I like to be able to take the clothes home, try them and if they don´t fit properly, I like to have the option of a cash refund in case I cannot find an alternative. The same applies to buying something for someone else(ike dresses for Justin), it is comforting to know that you can have a refund rather than feel under pressure to find something else that you like in the shop. Another issue that I have with returns in Spain is the two week period. Two weeks passes very quickly in my life, especially since I live quite a drive from the shops so that puts me off buying too.

Susan

John maybe the best bet is to become a chameleon in nature and where required respond as you find........ I still feel however that there are definite differences in approach with the Spanish people (it's acceptable almost expected to be demanding) but as you observed it's all  part of the challenge when living abroad. It's understanding when not to take affront within the cultural differences i.e it's not meant as a personal slant but more the norm of behaviour. Don't know if I've described that well enough, but hopefully you know what I mean here.

Back to Susan. You are so right re the consumer's psychology here, as it's self defeating to limit refunds in that way. It only puts people off, especially in this day and age when time is precious and folk don't necessarily have the time to browse....

Goodstitch44  - at one level you're right, ...or you maybe right. I dont really want to think about whether your right or not (that complaining is ineffective in Spain because companies dont fulfil their obligations) because a better question is "what attitude is most likely to get me the result I want?"

You know this idea that to complain effectively in Spain you have to be demanding or brutal (my words not yours) just isnt my personal experience. I can think of two Spanish people who I am close to and know well, both professionals who are absolutely charming. They completely disarm whoever they are talking to by giving them a big smile, making a joke, and winning them over. At the moment I cant think of anyone English who can do this quite as well so it would be tempting to say that Spanish people are more charming the English people which is of course rubbish. It just so happens that I know two Spaniards who are and dont know any Englishmen (apologies to Englishmen who know me you've just slipped my mind at the moment).

Yes they are quite chameleon like. Its very impressive.

The thing is that in all situations, whether your talking to the waiter, your client, your spouse or your children you are powerless unless you have rapport. Get rapport first and you have a chance of being influential. The moment you loose rapport you loose influence (unless your a policeman!). This is true whereever you are so long as you're dealing with human beings.

I'd be the first to admit that getting rapport in your second language is more of a challenge. Controlling your feelings maybe a challenge too. T

And this is about reality by the way (cant remeber who mentioned that) because its about getting real results in the real world.

John

yes, I agree rapport is very important and you are far more likely to achieve results if this is done well.  The main point I was making though is that for rapport to work  in the property industry and legal issues in general you still need a common ground of basic right and wrong, otherwise you are starting from different places and are never likely to come to a mutual agreement. This is what many face at present in Spain, even at  courtroom level.

A smile is a universal language in  itself but unfortunately there will always be those who jump in feet first and alienate from the outset, no matter which country you are in.

Language difficulties, preconceptions and ignorance of facts could well be the determining factor when dealing with consumer affairs, so breaking down barriers and sterotypes  will help, but it also requires people to remain open minded and be willing to discuss (and where necessary identify) some uncomfortable truths, which sadly appears to be a dying trait these days!

Unfortunately, so long as there are those who turn a blind eye to instances where consumer affairs have gone horribly wrong and remain in denial of the overwhelming facts, or suggest that those highlighting such instances are doing Spain a diservice by discussing the facts as they stand, the temptation will remain to stereotype from both sides of the argument.

The only solution that I can see is for consumers to come together to affect change to the benefit of all and not segregate into separate camps.

John Wolfendale, didn't take it personally probably because I am charming but as it was mentioned thought I ought to explain how I was addressing my problem.

Unfortunately I cannot meet face to face with those I am in dispute with otherwise I believe I would have had closure.

However all my Spanish friends say that complaining is thought to be a pointless exercise so who am I to argue with them 'cos at this moment in time they appear to be correct.

Floella you wrote

"I have been in contact with both the UK branch and, in error believing I was emailing German HQ, the Californian branch. Both of whom have been incredibly helpful to the point where, without my asking, they have given me the  details of who to contact in Germany. Both openly admitting they had several major issues with the Madrid branch .

At the moment I am being guarded in what I write because for 40 years I have had nothing but respect for this Global company and  would still endorse their products. However in the future, where Spain is concerned, think it best to  buy cheap and replace if  the product goes into a complete meltdown as my mega expensive product has."

May I query why the Madrid Branch is not being made accountable by the German HQ? Surely if they have a problem with the Spanish branch then they should not just ignore the problem as it will ultimately result in their products acquiring a bad reputation . As an alternative strategy Is there any way that as an act of good faith you could make the German HQ take ultimate responsibility for your product if their Madrid Branch is so ineffective (thus effecting good public relations)?

If this is indicative of other consumer issues in Spain  (is it I wonder?) then perhaps foreign companies should start to put commercial pressure on Spanish outlets who blatently ignore consumer protection rules. Perhaps this is not the norm however? It would be interesting to see if this is quite a common problem in Spain.

 Having read this thread I still have no idea what appliance is causing so many problems at the actual cost?

My sentiments exactly ads.

Today I shall be phoning,again, with this very question.

It will then be followed up by the letter, I am composing right now, to their chief executive.

I intend to end the letter that, dependent upon outcome, it will be assumed the said company will therefore not have any reason to object to my posting on forums ,as a  warning to others about the Spanish branch of this very well respected Global Company, my letter him and his ,if any ,response.

Equally if the outcome is productive I shall also post the "good news"

Finally, after 2 months, it is sorted.

Unfortunately it required the intervention of Miele German HQ but have just received a nice email from the Madrid branch with an offer that I find most acceptable.Great pity that this Spanish office played the usual trick of preferring to ignore in the hope that I would vanish into thin air but now they know that should  I, or others, have  problems in the future they had better act as per the company philosophy because I now have HQ's hotline number.

Whew

 floela, please tell us what the appliance is and the cost! I have been following this and am so pleased for you but you must complete the story! Thanks. Kevin

Kevin,

Appliance was a Miele Induction hob. Cost 1500E + iva. 3 1/2 years ago. They are coming down in price now though.

Lifespan..10/20 years but mine broke down totally and estimate to repair was 1,100 euros.    Have never had a problem with a Miele product before but was well aware that as it was out of the guarantee period  there would be no obligation on the company"s part to do anything. But I was hoping because the are normally an excellent company to deal with.

It would have been so easy for Miele Madrid IF they had replied thus to my emails. I would have had to have bought a new hob but because they totally ignored me I involved German HQ and through them a very very favourable deal was struck and soon a new model will fill the hole in my worktop.

Just hope Miele Madrid  have learned a lesson because they can't do enough for me now.

floella

well what a result!   Earlier in the thread I was saying how people can change attitudes by standing up for what is right, and that does go from consumer issues like yours right through to many of the problems in the property/legal industry that we all know  about.

Good for you, you not only got a result but probably helped others in future dealing with that business.

So a little demading achieved the final goal. Yeay! Well done Floella. No pushover this Brit.

Congratulations Floella.

There's nothing better than a happy ending.

And as this is probably the end of this thread... I've enjoyed participating in this. Thanks to everyone for the interaction.

Thanks guys, but must admit I needed luck to go with the determination, But should anyone ever have a problem with the Spanish branch of this company have filed contact details. 

Just wish it were as easy for those with build problems.

"Just wish it were as easy for those with build problems "

And so say all of us...

p.s. "all my Spanish friends say that complaining is thought to be a pointless exercise "

Now you have proved otherwise. Spread the word!!

 Well done Floella, Thanks for completing the story and it is nice to know that some companies stand by their products, Pity it was such a long road but what a wonderful result!  Sounds as if it is well done HQ shame about the branch! Kevin