Liability and walking away

As most of you know I am not a buyer on Corvera or an owner on RODA however work hard to help and advise people of their rights and currently I am receiving more than 12 e-mails every week asking for help on how to exit contracts

I am certain that if the economic situation was different there would not be so many problems, certainly the RODA resortis a good facility. with good build quality and some facilities and benefits from being close to ammenties beach etc and the prices on currebt completions seem to be holding up for mortgages

I also have regular contact with a number of independant lawyers who I have asked for advice form and some things they agree, others they do not

The first problem is that any lawyer, that is provided by the agent may not be as indpendant as they should be as their main clinet is the agent who they rely on for work and it is people like Maria Del Castro, who only posts on the main forum that has providede some good advice on this and won some actions for refunds

The bad news is that they all agree that you are not able to walk away from the contract without loosing the noney that you have paid out and with the possibility of Caledonia coming after you for the balance, sorry people, and this is happening in Spain everyday now where people decide it is cheaper than being hit with a property that may have reduced in value by 40%

The interesting information I have received howvever relates to what happens when the property is finished and completion requested and you start the valuation process for a mortgage etc

The mortgage market in Spain is tough and you can only get 70% of the valuation or the sales price, WHICHEVER IS THE LOWEST

As I explained to 2 lawyers we have also have people due to the credit crunch, and loss of jobs that they cannot now get a mortgage. Now again I have read that there is a consumer law in Spain where if you cannot get the mortgage or cannot loan enough money based on the actual property vaulaution

The Following was the response


is out of the " Force Majeure" principle of Contract law and liabilities, and it is expresssly contained in the model-advised contract by the National Consum Institute. It is, in my opinion  a wonderful way-out for consumers in these difficult times.

This was the other advice for a contract at another site

To retouch the contract according to Consumers Law so he can have 
(1)  Fair and balance  penalty clause ( 20% of amounts paid against 100% proposed in clause 7th of the contract).
 
(2) According to Consumers Law cancellation clause , no automatic extension of completion deadline and no restriction on activation                                                                                                                      

I know that you cannot use this potential get out until completion and until you have potentially made more staged payments but I am eagerly awaiting a test case

Hi I have just received this reply from Carmen, who is handling our file at Corvera.

I asked her about my concerns, since it was she who told me about the stalled additional facilities. Here is her reply.

"I'd like to take this opportunity to inform you that there will be more facilities along with the Golf Course. You will receive anyway more detailed information by the end of this year. We are preparing this at the moment. We expect to open the golf course end 2009 as I explained you in the office, and at the same time we will open a beautiful Club House that will have a golf shop, changing rooms a qualified restaurant and bar with big terrace area. There also will be a convenience shopping facility available and some other sport facilities like paddle-tennis courts, tennis courts and sports fields. Remember that with the apartments there will be communal swimming pools and gardens as well.Progressively there will be even more. But again, soon you will receive some nice information about this.

Please be aware that I am the only one who can give you accurate information about Corvera Golf. The information that I give you is the official and real. Should you have any queries please let me know. Please be aware we are working hard on fulfilling your wishes to have you satisfied."



I noted the words offical and real. Comments anyone
Rick

Again legally, as seen at Polaris World Hacienda Requelme there is nothing in the contract that requires them to build the facilities, other than the pools and roads

HR, 18 months on still have a garden shed type clubhouse and shop and the work on the Town Centre has not started

There have been a number of legal challenges which have failed based on the way that the contrcat is structured 

Unfortunately it appears that it is still unclear as to where our liability ends, most solicitors appear to say that it ends with the deposit, but some say they can 'chase' you for more. Roy who has a lot of experience in Spain believes thay can chase you if they so choose ( although  those who have been chased may have had a different contract to ours). It would be great to find out for sure, I would have thought it would have been quite clear to a solicitor one way or the other, but apparently not. Has anyone got any ideas- should we ask someone at Corvera? does anyone know if anyone defaulted at Roda and if so were they chased (Roy would you know)? 

Has anyone got an independant solicitor they might ask - ie ideally  no connections with Corvera or their agents ( preferably outside the Murcia region) and have a good reputation? ( and then recommend them to me), if all of us who are not happy with our current solicitors join the same reputable independant solicitor it might help with future costs if 'things are not straight forward'.

Also I find it hard to believe that developers and agents ( in general) could lie about a development in any way they want, to get a sale and this would not matter in any legal sense, as long as it's not written into the contract, it would be a con mans heaven!


kev

Good morning from Oz!

Thanks to everyone who has made new inputs, incl. Mr.U., Rick P with comments re: Carmen, Roy Howitt from Inspectahomes. and Kev2 for his/her ongoing work, plus everyone else.

I'm sure that we all sincerely hope that dedgley holds onto her HBOS job. It's all nightmare, isn't it?

I just took a look at a side bar article on the EOS pages called, "Crunch Time In Spain". Worth a look as it says something about how Spain intends coping with the banking crisis but I see fragmentation trends and union involvement looming and that's made me decide today to move the funds from the sale of our earlier apartment recently sold, as advised to you all (which is already committed to Corvera) down to Oz and I'll keep it on deposit for 6 months in Aus.$.

I know we'll have to pay a commission each way but if our local Spanish bank goes under, as was hinted as a possibility by one of our EOS friends yesterday when I'd asked about  two banks in particular, we'd be bankrupted completely and that would be that!

Oz is feeling the pinch but with any luck, once we've transferred the funds down here, the Aus$ will go up again (don't hold your breath) and the Euro will devalue which I'm sure that most of us would like to see, wouldn't we?...... unless of course you are IN Euros already..... Sorry about that if it applies.

I'm just not happy with it being there right now  but at least have the option of bringing it to Oz.

On the subject of money: If we are going to form a central core of Corvereans who are prepared to join financial and moral obligations to engage our first rate independent legal adviser as suggested by us all in varying ways, as I suggested earlier, we need to protect our advice thus gained by ensuring the EVERYONE who potentially can benefit, pays their way somehow.

Also, Lisa is putting in the hard work for us right now in defining our options in that direction (thank you again Lisa) but I was reflecting generally on all of this and even though it's early on in setting that up and our all reaching agreement, should we consider starting a basic account of some sort and each deposit a small amount which can be made available for the ongoing incidentals for Lisa and anyone else who is involved?

If we are going to contribute to our legal war chest, we are going to have to do that anyway, probably in stages with retainers etc.

Sure As Hell, if we now start to back off from the idea in principle, they are just going to walk all over us, as per the other resorts and the time in which we can apply legitimate pressure, will be gone and the snipers will move forward.

RickP's message re: Carmen on the face of it, is very reassuring but it's what we actually SEE on the other developments that worries me.

Thanks for that RickP, it sounds good but that why we need the legally binding and legally derived statement, which is legally enforceable in terms of spec, timings and details of facilities etc, direct from senior Corvera and Calidona MANAGEMENT.

As for me, I've done my sums and much as I'd love to be able to walk away unencumbered for our own reasons as detailed earlier, because we bought two properties, we have already paid Euros146,055 and there is no way in the world, on top of our other major losses, that we could even contemplate that, so we have no choice but to "put more good money after bad", so it seems but that's our only way forward.

The only alternative glimmer is if our legal fight brings forth enough fruit where the developers are forced to offer us a clean break and the return of our deposits........ More squadrons of pigs flying overhead!!!!

We simply have to hope that, because Spain has already been down for a couple of years, the recovery there is poised to spring forth, especially if the UK plan for regeneration allows folks at home to get the housing market moving again and to reinstate the traditional flow of people from UK to Spain.

By the way, the critical but rarely mentioned topic of the new airport.... This IS crucial to the well-being and viability of Corvera. Does anyone have a good quality update please?  Is it forging ahead or is that too, in the doldrums and dragging its feet?  If that slows down, so do our chances of a quicker recovery.

Oh well, thanks very much again everyone, with kind regards, John and Anne/Fizzler.

Re: the airport,

I was lead to beleive it has been started but was all over the area last week, even lost my way several times too, easily done.

No real sign of major activity anywhere, I did notice a new (empty) road just soutwest of Corvera with impressive entrance, not sure what it was? looked to grand for an airport.
It was hossing it down all day so visibility was not good for sightseeing.

Rick

Many thanks for the reply RickP!

Sounds like more doldrums!  Does anyone have any more info please? This is of great importance to our Corverean well-being/future.

Thanks a lot, 

John/Fizzler.

Hi me again. 
I've seen the airport site. 
If you go through Corvera Town to the end of the street don't turn right to go into Corvera go straight ahead it's straight down that road and took me approx 3 mins to reach the entrance. 
You will see the SACYR sign and the whole area is fenced off.
There is a man stationed at the entrance in a hut. I counted 5 cranes and I saw three trucks go in while I was there.
If you google it there is information showing the minister has signed with the developer. 
It looks like things are moving! 
Esther gave me the location of the airport but she didn't know where it was.
I was amazed as it was 3 mins down the road.
The small village next to it is Valladoises... I think that's how you spell it.
Cute little place I found 1 very cool bar which is encouraging.
I also saw on the airport information that there will be 3 entrances to the airport and that road is one of them which is great news. At a push I could wheel my suitcase to the airport and walk it in about 30 mins.
That is one very positive thing.
I apologise for having not spoken to the lawyer my workload has been extreme going to try again now but keep trying at siesta time and not getting a reply... as expected.
Google the airport and have a look there is definite action there and the SCYR signs are up!!

Very reassuring Lisa, thanks.

Anita.

Great news about the airport, wasn't suprised I didn't see it.

I was on that road about 5 times, it was raining so hard I had trouble seeing the road!!!!

Still great news, very cheap cab rides.
Rick

I also believe they are also going to improve the roads linking the airport to the A30 and RM2. Not sure where it will link to the A30, possibly near Fuente Alamo, a few km South. Alternately it might link at the top of the hill going down to Murcia (where the roundabout is on the road from Corvera) but in which case not sure what impact it will have on the local road through Corvera Village.

Anyone know anymore?

Hello everyone, 

Thanks for your replies re: Covera Airport, that's great news!

Not only is it crucial to our establishing the resort and our commercial well-being, have you thought about this?...... It potentially brightens our rental options scope, if that's the way you want to go:  

We don't have to wait for the tourists to start flowing in and out but even then, just as with other major airports, there will be literally hundreds of ancilliary service related companies on site and wanting to establish businesses in the immediate area...... I know that from my aircrew days, when I used to curse the fact that there were so many dogs-bodies cluttering up the area, what with baggage handling facilities, catering outfits, fuel farms and a million other things.

But, as I say, now that the facility is being moved ahead positively, it should hopefully, kick-start us ali because as of now, there are going to be THOUSANDS of highly skilled, highly paid expert technicians and engineers on site installing the vastly complex support systems, apart from the Mud Movers who dig the holes etc.

I anticipate that there will be literally hundreds of specialist contractors on site and I'll bet that their specialist employees will not be wanting to drive long distances to/from work each day, plus a lot of the companies will want their employees to accept good quality rental accommodation in the immediate area as part of their contract packages..

I might buy one of my old Boeing 747's and set it up as an aviation club!  It'd make a good windsock/weathervane on the 19th. hole!

Very many thanks again for replying to my question and maybe we could include this vital part of our wider/best interests on a regular basis please if anyone else visits?

With kind regards,  John/Fizzler.

Hi everyone,

I just received a message form PaulC who was responding to one of our chats under the thread, "Let'a all work together"

He wants to join the legal pressure group but does not appear to have read all the to and which has gone on under "Walking away".

So how many others are unaware of what has become the main theme, as we are fragmented in that respect?

Can someone who is "computer savvy" tell us how to tidy up our communications so that these gaps don't appear?

After reading Paul's message (I re-directed him to "Walking away") I then found it difficult to get back onto the main thread and could only do so by going back to an old EOS message under "Walking away" and here I am again.

Sorry to sound thick but this sort of thing is happening.

All the best,

John/Fizzler.

Hi all, been speaking with my sister today, definetely wish to join in any concerted legal action reference facilities/amenities on Corvera.Is there a dedicated thread for this? If so please let me know. Still no reply from Banco Popular regarding developers mortgage. Anyone else heard anything regarding this.
Paul C.

I'm not a legal expert by any stretch but to get a legally binding statement at this point in the development seems very unlikely and not sure how this could be forced through any legal route. I've always assumed that the time for any action would be when there is reasonable doubt that the facilities would be provided.

I know that some of the facilities on Roda are being delayed but have they actually reneged on any of the facilities promised - they,ve delivered the golf course, the club house, the beach club all be it later than expected and with the probable DeVere and PGA partnership this should underpin the quality of our development. I think it will be very difficult to prove that the facilities on Corvera will not be provided even though they might not be provided as early as we like.

May be I am missing the point?

What I would need is someone with suitable legal experience in property law to provide their input before I consider contributing to any legal fund. Possibly some of the contributors to the debate might have this in which case I'll re-read their input.

I worry that we are aiding a self-fulfilling prophecy in that the negativity is not going to encourage any new buyers who read these posts.

     

Agreeing with your point they actualy haven´t done anything legally wrong yet and, as I explained before, on some developments where they tried to take action against developers, Polaris for example, where facilities were not delivered the action failed

Again they avoid listing facilities in the actual contract and they even featured the problem on BBC Watchdog with little results

If of course they fail to deliver the properties to the agreed contractual time then that´s a different factor 

They also don´t actually say when the facilities will be built as per RODA with their commercial centre but again no grounds for legal action

An apology to Mr Unhappy.

I am really sorry for the beginning of a prior post on the Roda site.  Please see the post Calidona on the Roda site. It was a childish comment and I am sorry.

Thanks Whittle - no hard feelings and no real need to apologise but you'll appreciate it if I don't acknowledge this on the Roda site

Lets hope all of our concerns may be addressed / resolved.

Getting back to the jist of this thread, you cannot simply walk away from this contract.  Calidona does have the right to your personal assets of you do not complete.  Sorry but that is written in the Spanish version of the contract.

It seems that the best course of action is to try and guarantee some reassurances about the development itself (as Lisa is pursuing) and let us all work togehter to ensure that the development is what we hoped it will be!

 

I will have to take issue with you re being pursued by the developer.

 There is nothing in my contract that suggests Caledona are able to pursue a claim against personal assets for the balance of the pp if we walk away. I have also had this confirmed by my spanish lawyer. That said I have no intention of reneging on the purchase UNLESS Caledona are in breach of contract by not providing the facilities originally stated.