Calling Gibraltar from a Spanish mobile

Dear All,

apologies all round,  I did once say that these apartments might be worth 50% of buying price and that inflation would eventually come to the rescue, sorry, really sorry, but that was an exageration. Read the following excellent post

26 Mar 2008 10:17 PM skt Parcela I've made 28 posts Send private message to skt

Hi, I have an apartment on the Casares Del Sol site and I just came back today after spending a week there. Work seems to have stopped on the Suites site and I watched this week as truck after truck left the site taking away building materials. Apparently there are 20 workmen left on site to tidy it up but building has ceased. With regards to the commercial centre, I have been told that plans for it were never submitted to the town hall and that the developers never had any intention of building one. If I were in your shoes, I would certainly not be parting with my money.

The fact is that these apartments are virtually worthless at the moment and it will be very many years before infaltion will make any impression, most especially for British buyers who have the euro growth to contend with.

Very sorry and hope a miracle is on it's way for everyone committed to a mortgage and community fees.

All the best.

Norman

Dear Norman,

You have become very bitter and twisted with your comments and reading between the lines you seem to be hoping that this complex fails as you were unable to complete on your purchase.  As it happens there are plenty of us who have completed and although we are not happy that we did not receive all that was promised in the original advertising material we are determined, through the efforts and leadership of our PM presidents and committees, to make this complex into a very desirable place to spend our holidays.  Incidentally I have let my apartment on numerous occasions so far and have only had positve feed back from the clients, so much so that I have had repeat bookings.  

Whilst I understand that you are upset with the situation your ultra negative comments do not help the people who have completed and are actively trying to rent out their apartment as this forum could be read by potential customers.

Best regards,

Richard.

I had fully intended not to lower myself and become party to the ravings of a very obviously embittered man but once again find myself drawn.  These properties are possibly not was expected for those people who bought and who had hoped tomake a quick buck but to those of us who are in it for the long term, and there are many who have not been so greedy as to buy two or more for quick sale purposes, these apartments are ideal.  In speaking about ourselves, we have not gone into this with our eyes closed,and we are well aware of problems that can occur - no different from anyhwhere in the  Costas which has undergone such a drastic upturn in the building trade.  Yes we are a little disappointed that every thing just did not happen like clockwork but what does?  The area itself is fantastic with 'real Spanish countryside just a short distance away, a beautiful beach without the need to jockey for space and many nice walks.

If the rest of the readers of this page have any sense they would not reply to these ravings - instead they would pay up their community charges - get on and join in with the rest of us who want to make this site one to enjoy visiting - we ourselves have no problem letting as those who do know of the benefits cannot wait to sample them.

Dear All,

thank you both, as a simple engineer I only report what I see and believe, sorry if that gives offence, but if it gives you some incentive to post your positive experiences then perhaps it will do you all some good. I truly hope so.

Emma did start a "happy thread" for just such a purpose. Why not use it?

Please do not hesitate to post, that is what the forum is for.

However, calling me names will not I feel add a jot to your chances of selling the unsaleable, or a penny to the valuation. I am afraid the market for resales is too shrewd for that gimmick.

Again I hope you manage it and the miracle comes.

Best Wishes

Norman

Dear All,

I feel compelled to respond to this discussion!

I paid my reservation deposit to Andalucian Dream Homes, and feel that the development was incredibly miss-sold to most of us.

I challenge anyone who says that lettings are high or ideal to prove it......I have visited the site twice, and apart from long term lets (complete with barking dogs)  I have only seen 1 couple who were using a customers apartment (the guy was a decorator).

I can see why people are not paying the community fees, has anyone thought that some people may be feeling the economic hardships of the high euro and lack of rentals?

I was born in September, a Virgo, so it is in my nature to be truthful and analytical.........I would never have completed, in fact, there are a number that are taking legal action over the mis-selling (this forum, in common with others will be no doubt monitored by the very people who sold the area and the development to us all.

By the way, the development across the way (dark red apartments, so I am told, only sold 2 units in the past twelve months. I still admire the development above Casares, as it looks 'classical', unlike Casares del Sol.

I presume my comments will be shot down by individuals willing the site to be a 100% success.......I am realistic, not a dreamer.

Regards, 

Dear All,

I feel that I should try to explain myself since so many seem to have got the wrong idea from their efforts "to read between the lines" etc.

As a pensioner with a little in the way of life savings I was sold an "investment" a "highest luxury" piece of "front-line golf property" that would have the potential to rise in value in both the short (off-plan) and long term (quality site and construction plus the area). In addition it was supposed to be a closed holiday complex with good rental potential to assist with the mortgage. All supposedly good long term strategy with no "quick bucks" or speculation involved. Large deposit reducing the mortgage, low interest mortgage, all sound property investment stuff and all done safely through a supposedly independent honest lawyer.

You know what happened and this is who is to blame (from another post):-

Dear Justin,

as you know I am a huge fan of the site, but only whilst you stick to the motto - tell it like it is .

I have only regard for the truth and the true facts. I despise all spin and all "spinners".

The truth here is no doubt the same as elsewhere and is nothing to do with the nice life, nice people, nice golf, nice beaches etc. etc. not forgetting the nice weather.

The truth is that there is an army of crooked corrupt lawyers who don't work for their clients but for the developers, they accept purchase contracts from their co-conspirators for little sub-standard living accommodation boxes, sign them or coerce their unfortunate clients to sign them pretending that these are the contracts that will deliver the wonderful luxury holiday complexes that the fraudulent brochures and salesman promise the unsuspecting clients. Then to add to their sins they persuade the unfortunates that they must legally complete on just the box and never mind the "extras" or lose all.

You know the truth and have experienced it, by the sound of it you are up to your neck in it, if you haven't got the extras after two and a half years have you given up, content to be "shafted", or are you still fighting it?

I urge you to forget the spin, keep telling it like it is, both positive and negative.

THIS IS IN NO WAY AN ENCOURAGEMENT TO ANY FREELOADERS WHO ARE TRYING TO EVADE THEIR JUST DUES

Can I ask any contributor who has had there post cut or hidden to pm me with the original please.

Regards to all

Norman

Simply because I wish to recover my small life savings does not make me "bitter and twisted" or indeed any of the other adjectives applied to me by  other "members".

I freely admit that I do not know all the answers but from my own observations I cannot see that this site has any better prospects than Justin's site, which as he also admits is in difficulties. Indeed I believe it's prospects are much much worse.

In fact I believe it is doomed to failure, doomed to people unable to pay their mortgages and community charges, doomed to sub-prime letting, doomed to people not wishing to throw good money after bad, failure to pay community fees (as experienced by Justin and already hinted at by Brutus) and therefore complete deterioration.

This is what I believe, but I sincerely do not wish it or any part of it, I earnestly hope I am wrong and the miracle will come to turn things around.

Good luck as always.

Norman

Maybe Norman and Gill should set up their own website-,  moaners.com or can I suggest bitter and twisted.com.  to keep them busy so the real owners can use this website to promote the positivies and make the most of what is a difficult situation. 

We had a number of rentals last year all were very complimentary, although one of our renters was "pestered" by one of the above mentioned and complained to us, everyone has returned for at least another week this year.  The site had lots of activity (children, families etc) over the summer months, but was not too packed.  We cannot change whats happened we can only look to the future.

So yet again instead of declining to pay the community charge or encouraging non-payment you people cough up and shame on you for those people that do not.

Investments go up and down - remember the stock market!! - so yes the market is down at the moment, but itwill go up a steady nerve and common sense is all that is required.

Dear All,

sorry to hear of RMHP's difficult situation, hope your name-calling and libel makes you feel better.

Glad your few rentals were a success but unfortunately they will decline sharply once the full effects of the burglaries, sub-prime letting, dogs and further deterioration takes place.

As to community charges I understand that the necessary maintenance element is a legal requirement for all owners who have completed and that part of the completion liability will have been fully explained to you by your lawyer, when he advised you to complete. I have no real experience of this but can envisage a problem arising when enthusiastic minority owners attempt to load extra costs onto the standard charges for various "improvements" for minority purposes etc.

Any non-payment for dissatisfaction would I feel have to be done on mass with associated handing back of the whole site to the developer for satisfactory completion. Difficult or perhaps impossible to organise especially on a large site where some parts are more satisfactory, perhaps than others. Quite a problem no doubt. Even further complicated by some owners who bought with their eyes wide open, perhaps at some discounted price. Very tricky.

What of the owners persuaded to complete on very limited funds? Those that are not in RMHP's happy financial position of being able to subsidise his / her "investment" for the next ten years or so? Their situation is not just difficult but quite impossible, I would suggest. Their investment is truly doomed. Irrespective of the state of their nerves and senses.

Sorry, but still think this site needs a miracle. Let us all hope for it.

Best of luck as always.

Norman

Dear All,

thank you Chills, but I am afraid unlike RMHP, it was not a matter of choice.

The crooks tell you that every apartment comes with a low cost mortgage already built in for every purchaser - guaranteed. Even for old codgers like me. When I say crooks of course I mean the agents, the developer and of course the main crook, the one you trust most of all, the lawyer.

The truth is that to get a mortgage it is subject to status, age income etc. with all rental income fully considered at zero, no argument, no discussion, absolute zero. So you can throw those false projections from the crooks in the bin.

The only possibility for me was to involve my children as co-applicants and that would be dependant on their uncommitted income, which because of my insistence on leading them into property as soon as possible, was not great.

Added to which they have an unfortunate habit of regarding my life savings as their inheritance.

So what was the deal?

30% had been committed off plan so should be worth perhaps 40% at build completion.

Oh no, at "build completion" nothing is completed and in this case will never be completed, ever.

All that is available is a Local Authority pretend certificate of first occupation bought from someone without any true checks being made.

The market may have had a downturn but even these unfinished apartments must be worth something, surely. Fine, then test the market, easy, except that no one is interested, no one at all, even the sharks have disappeared.

Street market value not minus 30% not even minus 50%, no offers at all, again absolute zero.

So for my children it was what is today called a "no brainer".

Get lost Dad and get our inheritance back.

Sad but true.

Best wishes as always

Norman

Norman

Have you actually done anything constructiveinthe last year I now ask myself.

I even asked you to get incontact with me as apparently I understood you have a pent house which we could possibly be intereted in purchasing but you have been too busy ranting and raving over the last year and never responded .  A possible oportunity was staring you in the face and you missed it !!! so just shut up and get off this site.

How dare you suggest owners to stop paying thier community fees and then have the audacity to suggest the committees  would increase community charges for minority improvements. Now its the nonpayers that are affecting thier own invetments - the gardens etchave still to be maintained even if we cannot yet improve them . The onus is on evey owner to pay thier fees it is these selfish people that are affecting thier neighbours thier own investment  now not the developer he's gone and is not interested.  There are long term rental options and like everything it has a price if you cannot afford it sell it because it will sell at a price everything has a price even if it one you do not like it .

We are where we are ! We need they owners to pull togther to improve the site because no one else will.   I have a friend who owns in what I coinsider a fab apartment in Puerto Banus, but see has a long list of moans etc but they are no obvious to me but they too took the developer to court - took 9 years and they won but have never received a penny !!!! and are unlikely to do so. If we sit around waiting  and let the apartment s deterioate like you suggest  and dont upkeep the cpmunity and dont try to make imptovement  then the investment will be worthess and in a worse situation.  So thats a really bright ideas Norman!! NOT

Now go and bother someone else!

Dear All,

perhaps some good comes out of all the bad and nasty words and it is always that the messenger is to blame.

Apparently Brutus is in the happy position of having even more personal money to waste and has little consideration for those who do not..

Is this somewhat belated retrospective interest just spin or is there any substance in it?

The only known interest I had of any kind was Gus who hoped to move up, probably out of the burgeoning worst burglar zone, but only on some sort of exchange basis.

Brutus only appearance was to huff and puff on the forum about his/her special times newspaper contact which died because of lack of wind. Very sad.

But to look on the bright side Brutus can now buy the majority of the site at a very good discount. Perhaps therein lies the answer, real money equals real change and no doubt greater influence with the authorities. Money can buy you everything here it seems.

Never mind, the forum is everything, all we have to impart information, we must all thank Brutus for the effort and contribution. Keep it up.

A particular gem is your friend's story which is rather revealing of your own nature, invaluable, you must be a huge, if not enormous, optimist to have considered buying anything here in the face of that nine years experience. I for one would not have been that brave, given that extreme warning. Would that I could have had it.

Actual experience is unbeatable in the learning department and you, like Justin etc. are certainly getting it now. God help you.

You will do no better than Justin, no better than your friend, and in fact no where near as well.

I believe this site to be doomed to become a slum and only divine intervention, or lots of money, will save it.

This is of course only my own opinion, based on my experience, what I saw and of course the forum's postings.

The very best of luck with that.

Regards

as always

Norman

Hi All

Not my development but one that I do have a personal interest in

I am involved with other developments on the Costa Del Sol and have noticed that there appears that some are posting on threads on developments bringing nothing but doom and gloom reports

One name comes up on different development sites and that is Norman Sands,is he part of the E.O.S Team ?

Dan

Dear All,

not sure about this, not at all, it may be too clever for me, but in the hope that the forum may gain something I will endeavour to respond to what seems to be there. Please excuse me if I have got it wrong.

The forum and information is all important, irrespective of positive/negative spin etc. I do not view it as a social club or CB radio, I have no ambition for funny names or multiple posts etc. etc.

For these reasons I admire Justin's work, interviews, efforts etc. etc. but I am in no way connected and quite sure I am too old, too simple etc. etc. to be considered.

I assume that "interests in multiple sites" though undeclared corresponds to multiple "investments".

If that is the case then I am afraid I anticipate further bad news.

I believe that these investments will continue to go down for a long time.

With the euro almost 80pence and likely to reach parity I am afraid things are in for a very rough ride. This, allied to the gross oversupply bodes ill indeed for this area.

The supposed market correction has yet, I believe, to take into full account the other venues which are making remarkable progress.

The equator is a long way round and the sun is everywhere. Pools, golf courses and attractions can be planted anywhere and everywhere.

Peoples in other places are more eager and areas have less crime, infrastructure is less crowded etc. etc. etc.

Investment agents have already left and decline is deeply set in.

One famous investor is pushing Cyprus and others are active elsewhere.

I doubt that any developer here will ever again be able to con investors using their crooked agents and lawyers into reserving sub-standard properties. I also doubt that the infamous contract will survive.

Top quality and fair dealing may still survive but only in a limited extent. Certainly no amount of spin will affect things to any degree.

Still an odd ball, like me, will not regard that as "doom and gloom", just a much required new beginning.

Good luck as always

Norman

Hi Norman,

Gosh I am glad your not coming to my Birthday party as you really must be Billy no Mates.

Norman why all the gloom,this is a  cycle in any shape you wish to put it and what goes around will come around given time,

Its not the first difficult time and it wont be the last and  have to ask ?does it get you off  by painting such doom senario to make people worry more than perhaps they should do..

Now I cant believe that anyone would be sooo stupid as to do everything they could to devalue their own property and thats where I came in as this is not the only thread you appear to shed such gloom.

Have to say you do write a good posting and I have spotted a few more that  ride the forums spreading the armagenddon ( have a couple on my development)and if thats yer bag then I suppose who am I  to object.

Regards to you

Dan

If the Euro contiunes to strenghten then how does that effect us Norman????????

Also, there is no way Germany or France would hold up under parity and as we know Spain is already dipping. 

As for the continued doom and gloom yes we are in the middle of a correction and there is a time delay.  i.e. planning consents are falling but there is a two - three year time lag between planning and completion of new builds.  Once we get through this time lag supply should dip to even out more with demand and then the recovery can start.

Demographic and migrant predictions suggest long term growth however.  More tourists and more migrants will be in Spain in the coming years than ever before.  Other economic factors may also help Spanish tourist demand - for example continuing to up air fuel surcharchages based on distance.

So in short I do not predict long term doom and gloom (short term yes).

One thing I do agree on (based on historical precedents) is that poorer builders, agents ang general cowboys suffer most and comeback weaker/less when corrections take place.  Higher quality and financially sound institutions will do best long term as a result.  A good thing!

Kind Regards

Dear All,

sorry I warned you that this would be too clever for a simple chap like me.

sorry that the multiple interests now seems to be one other development.

My reason for posting elsewhere was to follow and reinforce Ian's lead and warn others on the basis of "forewarned is forearmed".

I admire your knowledge and confidence, but why not back it up with the real clincher, the answer to all questions?

Be the first, the very first, preempt even Brutus and buy a resale at Casares del Sol.

That would do more to assist this site than all the spin in the world.

Go to it lads.

All the best.

Norman

Norman

I do not have money to throw away just like you, but an error injudgement was made on this purchase but I can only make the best of a bad decision. If the ecomony had been different and our investment increased I wonder if we would still feel the same or would be be saying well its increased as we had hoped etc etc etc.

I still love casares as do many who visit there. We are not alone in the problemns we have it is common in Spain.

5 properties have been sold on Casares del sol in recent months !! normal 2 bed 2 bath just under 200,000 - more than we though and with the current exchange rate we would break even if we sold for this. But if you continue to overpublicise and inflate problem which are common to lots of developements in Spain then you alone are damaging the investment for others.  

It is publicised that it currently take 18 month to sell on Costa del sol not just Casares del sol, the whole of the area is affected. The whole of this areas is reliant on the tourist trade for its economy. The spsainsih governement have a 10 year plan and it is this that will ultimnately affect our long term investment. The government will not  let this importmsnt fact be overlooked otherwise Spain in genreal will decline. You only have to drive to see all the investment and infratstructures still being pumped into this area to know that if you can hang it will be OK . importmantly though you have to continue to maintain you own investment not let it deterioate.

Rome wasnt built ina day and the currentl president have onlyb been in post for a mx of 9months some much less. It was never going to happen overnight. Treess will die a proportion of newly planted trees do die, even inEngland!!! the tress that havent survived only represent approx 1% of those [planted so thats quite impressive. I think we lost 1 palm tree onPM4 the other look great and only one other tree I suspect may not survive. You could have taken a picture of all the trees and planting that are doing well and surviving now thats being positive.   You could have taken a picture of the new and modified watering systemns inplace.  Basic's 1st. There are many who are passionate about making this a success. Why dont you try looking at the positive's its much better for stress levels.   

You still havent said if you are trying to sell. We are consider buying an atico  if its inthe right block etc. Send a PM if you are truely serious about selling on your investment.   

Casares Del Sol - attempted break in

My mother Joy went to an apartment we have at Casares del Sol with our cleaner to check the property and have it prepared for the owners arriving tomorrow only to find that the patio door had been damaged where someone had tried to break in.  Luckily the door held and they didn't get in to the property. There were fingerprints all over the glass.  It makes me sick to my stomach, we have two apartments on the complex and the other one has also had an attempted break in.  Same thing - door attacked with a crowbar or the like. 

We were hoping that the fingerprints could be lifted off the glass so I phoned the Casares police only to be told that I had to contact the Sabinillas Civil Guard as they were the ones who would lift the fingerprints.  I phoned the Civil Guard to be told that they could not do anything until we had made a Denuncia.  There is a crime number which is very good for reporting all types of crimes - 9021021112  they speak English and you tell them what happened, they then put it in the system and transfer the report to the relevant police station.  You then go to the police station to collect the crime report.  However in our experience (from the last attempted break in) it is more complicated to report a crime on someone elses behalf.  The last time Joy had to plead with the Estepona Police to get them to give her the report - they like to deal with the owners direct.

We took photos of the damage and sent them to the owners, luckily or unlucky for them the owners are arriving tomorrow and now will have to deal with this.  I was so annoyed today because the police did not come out to at least try and lift the fingerprints, now it has rained and there will be no evidence at all.  Why is it that before the police can do anything the owners have to file a denuncia? This works if you are living here but it is a little more problematic when they are in another country.   I have been watching too much CSI and expected Horacio to come waltzing in with his powder take it back to the lab and have the criminals behind bars withing the hour!!  But seriously this is becoming such a big problem.  We currently only look after two apartments in this complex and both of them have had attempted break ins.  It makes us very nervous every time we check them as you just don't know what you are going to find when you open the door. 

This from Lisa's current blog 

This week I realised too that it's good to get away. Our urbanisation has totally run out of money and I'm avoiding the maintenance guy and the cleaners as we still can't pay them. I wish people would cough up and just pay their community fees. They don't seem to realise the impact their selfishness has on every other (paying) owner.

This from Justin's current blog 

Dear Brutus,

sorry but in the current scenario I cannot see how the Casares del Sol site can survive no matter how hard you may wish it.

I would of course love you to prove me wrong, show Justin how it is done, he does not even have the security problem, the access problem and the water problem to contend with.

Is it really possible?

As explained in this very thread I could not complete on my purchase and it remains unsold despite discount plus incentives.

Please go ahead and get a bargain, you will then have an extra incentive to make the place a success and I would perhaps have the small satisfaction of someone dedicated and hardworking obtaining some benefit. - Blq 23, Portal 76 A2  Casares del Sol

But, have you not considered the site above as a better bet.

Best Regards

Norman

Water shortage 

 There was talk that it could be a problem  but it now apears that the water levels are OK. But long term who knows its not just a  problem  where we are on CDS but its a problem throughout Europe - yes even the UK .   Almeria and Barcelona have to tank in water already in some parts.

If are all honest we know UK has water shortage problems so commonsense says we should it expect it in Spain , again maybe we are guilty of not doing our home work ourselves.  

So the importance of putting in the right planting when it is affordable is  of then up most importance. Getting the watering system working correctly is a priority . Actually it only cost 80 euros inparts and the gardeners time and expertise to put it right on PM4. Now the timing is correct i.e gardens are not being watered at mid day. Nor are they watering the pathways or the parked cars. they have been repositioned to water the gardens equally not waterlogging some areas and making deserts of other areas.    

Low occupancey

It is the low occupance that is also contributing to the breakins. if there was a higher occupance then the breakins would drop. We have had very few break in on PM4 but accept that it is possibly only a period of time before they progress to our area. Security and lighting have a greater effect in this area indetering breakins.

Interlarken and other community debtors

Interlarken owe PM4 over 24,000 euro in unpaid commuinity charges  for just PM4 which is being actively pursued. It is likely that and extrordinary AGM will be called for the PM4 owners to take more debtors to court. Additional penalties will be recommended for non payers to cover cost and charges and late payment fine will be voted on to deter late payers.   

Non payers  - access to pool facilities

Those non payers using the facilites will be identified according and pursued for payment , access to facilites will be withdrawn for the non payers and thier associated renters.

There is a proposed president meeting in the Uk to align across the development and look at the big picture re combined actions decisioen onsecurity debtors etc.