have the agents been wiped out in the property war

Bottom line is everyone in business has to make a profit whether it be mark ups or commissions, sure people can do private deals and try to miss the middle man but as someone who uses auctioneers and middle men a lot in the UK i feel they are worth their fees (so long as they do not get too greedy) for time saved and also they give you some assurance as to the authenticity of whatever products you purchase from them.

Never grudge someone a profit who is doing a good job for you, if you do the next time he may do a bad job.

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OK folks, time for the monkey to step in and settle the debate. I have followed this thread with interest, and agree with many of the points made on both sides of the argument. What can I offer that is unique so far? I am NOT an agent, NOR an auctioneer, NOR a website owner - I am a SELLER!

I have my property listed with several agents, each of which has so far brought a few people to view it.

I also have my number in the window (no sign saying enquire within - which I've never seen here) because I would love to sell privately. So far, only a few calls, and only one actual viewing (I discount the inevitable curious next-door neighbour, who I showed it to out of courtesy & in the interest of good neighbourly relations - plus, you never know!)

I'd like to sell privately, because there's a chance I can get a bit more in my pocket, or possibly an improved chance of securing a sale because I can offer it cheaper than what the buyer would pay through an agent. No need to explain because all of us here understand what happens in the real world.

I like the idea of marketing my property myself, because in my experience, I know far more about my property than any agent and can therefore push it's unique selling points better - plus, it's the only property I'm currently selling, whereas most agents really don't care whether the client buys mine, or the next one they show to them. (Sorry guys, but that is obviously a fact).

I also like the idea of advertising on the internet, because, well, that's where it's all happening these days, isn't it? Trouble is, I don't like paying for advertising unless I know I will get a good quality response. And that is something nobody can guarantee. At least with an estate agent (or auctioneer?) I don't have to pay a single cent, unless they actually sell my property. So, I have put my property on various free to advertise sites, not surprisingly with little response (two to be precise, one who said he would definitely like to view, when he comes out from Holland this month).

I know Justin (Eye On Spain) will say I should only bother with sites that achieve a high search engine rating. But as I said, I don't like to pay for advertising without any guarantee. It's like putting your car for sale in one mag, only to find the only response you get is from all the competitors. So you put it in all of those as well, and end up paying a fortune advertising it to other publishers, and after all, part exchange your car at a garage! So I hope he will forgive me for being cynical.

I have had a look at the SSD site. At least on first inspection, I don't see anything to persuade me that it offers anything more than the other sites I've already put my property on. The most immediate limitation I see is that it only markets to English speakers. I know there are some agents who, by the nature of their window display & other marketing techniques, also suffer this limitation, but I'm always careful to avoid those. The last three properties I sold were all to Spaniards (through Spanish agents incidentally)

So, here's the deal. If SSD is willing to put his/her (?) money where their mouth is, so am I. I will offer my property on the SSD website at a full 5% below the price the agents have it listed, but I will not pay an upfront fee to do so. Instead, I will gladly pay the €150 listing fee (I'll even waive the 50% discount offered to the first clients!) if I get a sale resulting from an enquiry from SSD, and in addition will come back on here and sing it's praises louder than anyone.

Obviously, SSD will have to trust my integrity on this one, but I hope the other contributors here will vouch for me. (There's a pint in it for you guys!) I'm a genuine sort of guy; although I feel 5% (or 4, or 3) is a lot for what most agents do, I've never objected to paying it when they've achieved the sale that above all else I wanted, so I certainly won't mind coughing up 150 notes if I get my property sold this way. So I hope this suggestion will be taken in the spirit it is intended. I think it will be an interesting way to, if not conclusively settle, add a little spark to a debate that no doubt is one that many other members on this forum would be keen to see play out.

A genuine seller,

Roberto

 

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As a buyer searching for the right property i am finding this discussion very interesting.

I have to say that personally i am currently looking at the websites of agents and "for sale by vendor" sites and doing my homework about what is available out there, prices etc. 

As a buyer i have not been impressed by the BIG agents (just my opinion), I know i dont want an off-plan property, and the majority of the larger agents that i have spoken to are very very keen to press these even though i have made clear that im not interested.  Why????  I am also not at all impressed by the hard sell and its the one thing that makes me turn on my heel and walk away ... even if they have the house of my dreams on their books!

I dont go on inspection trips .... i dont want to feel that anyone has the right to organise my day or what i view... so my husband and i have organised our own trips out to spain this month and another in a couple of months.

I will be visiting smaller agents in the areas we are interested in ... and hopefully they will have some properties that we will want to view.   As we are genuine buyers i would hope they would want to invest some of their time and effort in us and give us the benefit of their knowledge and experience.  Like in this country if we find an agent that does a good job for us then we will want to return to them (whether or not we buy through them on this occasion) and we will recommend them to others.  We looked at apartments a few years ago in Majorca and although in the end we decided against buying there we met an excellent agent who really impressed us and we recommended them to some others who have since both bought and sold through them (and probably recommended them others).

I will continue to look at the "for sale by vendors" sites and if i see something on them that i like the look of i will contact the seller and hopefully view them too.  I am not holding out for the bargain of the century ... but neither do i want to pay over the odds.  I want a reasonable property at a realistic price and i dont want to pay an extortionate agent's fee, but i am willing to pay a reasonable fee for someone who does a good job.

Buying a property is a tricky business .. especially when it is the first buy in a different country and i want to make as sure as possible that i dont fall into any of the many possible pitfalls.  As its my first buy in Spain i probably will go through an agent on this occasion (for peace of mind).  If i was a seasoned buyer and seller that probably would not be the case.   But the one thing that i will need is a agent that i feel that i can trust and who will be honest with me ... if i have any reason to doubt that i will walk away. 

Everyone is in business to make a profit, both agents and website owners, we all understand that.  As long as they give value for money, are upfront and honest, i dont grudge them a penny (or cent) of that profit.

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To add to Aunti Em's post.

We spent 2 years looking for the right place.

The first trip was an inspection with Parador. We wanted resale and they pushed the new builds.

After that, we trawled the web and found interesting properties with various agents.

Like her, we organised our own trips every 3 months or so and lined up a different agent each day.

We finally bought through a small Spanish agency with an English chap working for them. The service has been excellent and I would always recommend the small agents. They all took time to try and find the right properties for us.

 

Laury

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Certainly an interesting thread and some very fair comments.

Just a couple of minor points Roberto - you are an experienced seller. You know how to make good of your property and to point out features that often are missed by buyers who are seeing the propery for the first time and the seller who doesnt really know how to make the best of it.

Also with regards to pushing one particualr property over another, that is interesting. Speaking for myself that while yes I want to make a sale and therefore feed my kids, I hate wasting time, mine or anyone elses. The thrill I get from matching a property to a client goes above and beyond the fee earned (assuming it completes and some do fall off the table) And if I feel a property would not suit a client on listening to his criteria, then I woll not take them to see it and will not talk them into buying it - and yes I have lost sales where the buyer wanted me to make the desicion for them.

I will qualify a client before taking him anywhere to view - unless he has seen it on the web and decides to view. Before I make the appointment I talk to them to ensure they know where it is and to see if there would be anything that he would not like. One cannot hard sell a property!

I dont touch off-plans except from owners wanting to assign their contracts and usually at under the price they originally agreed! They are an easier sell as buyers only have to find a small amount of money to hold it and then it increases in prices, mortgage covers all the costs blah blah blah! Sold by people who are hard sellers, not by the true definition of an agent!

I also wont deal with owners who mess about, unsure if they really want to sell, or unsure about the price as again its my reputation on the line!

Unless its actaully going into a live auction, which attracts tha attention of over 21,000 unique viewers per month to the site and for which there is an admin fee to help copver the costs, then the entry to the agency side is free.

As is all the calls to arrange viewings, collating and ckecking property documentation, all the calls to potential buyers in my database, the time to put the property on the web, the time to email it out to the database, the time to view personally, take photos, description and pace out distance to local amenities etc, as is the petrol to accompany the viewers to the property. If there is a sale then chasing the lawyers, buyers, sellers and brokers to ensure a smooth transaction and helping both parties out with the various issues that arise during the transaction. Oh and accompanying at notary which can take at least half a day, assuming it goes through the first time!!! If this doesnt conclude in a sale then its my loss - and its a large loss over numerous properties against the one that I do sell - at 2.5% fee!

How much easier in the UK where after a viewing lawyers did the legals and searches, buyers sorted themselves out financially and on exchange and completion no one had to go anywhere, we were advised by a call from the lawyer that the deal had gone through and to invoice for the cheque!

Marketing - well again a little easier in the UK where one goes to the agent in the area of interest and looks at their stock. We have to (in many cases) try to market to the internatinal market - not cheap when a small box in the Times costs nearly £800! And you get maybe 3 calls from it! I nearly cry when I think how much I have spent over the years on the glossys, international papers, TV, radio and all the media - if Im lucky I will break even in 10 years time! Seriously it would get a small african country out of its debt. And this is not seen by the seller.

Also how many sellers are not genuine - so after running around and the the point of finally getting a sael, they decide they dont want to sell just now - or not accept that price. I have lost count of how many have refused an offer in the last few months but now regret it, but by then the buyer even if he is around does not trust the seller so nothing can be done there.

Luckily the recommendations I have speak for themselves, as does the fact that people working for other agents in my area buy from me as opposed to their own database!

Goos luck with the experiment Roberto but I think you will find the original poster of this is only out to keep the debate going to advertise his site - it is even in the body of some of his texts, but Georgia and myself will debate this to the end to put our point across - there are rotten apples in every barrell of life, but do not tar everyone with the same brush!

Now I must get back to work as luckily its getting busier and I have an extensive colour catalogue to print out - oh at my expense of course!

 

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Hi all

I think what Auntie Em says in her post just about sums up what most clients want, this is what I have found anyway,.......a choice and not to feel pressured and most importantly of all to be told the truth, whatever that may be good or bad, life out here for all its good points also has as many bad just as does living anywhere for that matter but here it is made or sometimes seems worse because of the language barrier. It is just as if not more so important to know what you are going to come up against especially if you are relocating a whole family to a new country.

Any prospective buyer will appreciate knowing about the pitfalls so they can make a fully informed choice on the actual facts, on what it is really like to live here, its not easy especially if you still need to work. I have even heard of people being offered jobs on viewing trips to give them a sense that its much easier than it actually is to get work here. Too often potential buyers are told what the seller thinks they want to hear and its not always the whole truth, in the early days when I have been showing clients around properties through other agents  I used to cringe at some of the things that were said to get a person to buy without any thought about whether it really was the right property in the right place for the client! Also by omitting to tell people about plans pending and illegalities in properties etc when they know about it is unforgivable and a total lack of respect for human kind. If you are totally honest and the buyer is determined to find a property I am sure that once they had found a person they had come to trust then they would stick with them until they had found it. If you have to tell them something that will make them think twice about the sale then you should.

It is important to think about the long term effect of how you treat your clients as there is no better advertisement than a happy customer as in all business!

One bad report is worse than 20 good ones and remembered 20 times as long!

 

This message was last edited by shar on 9/14/2007.

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Hmmm, Rixxy, I think possibly you misinterpreted some of my post.

You seem to think I was actually having a go at agents. On the contrary, I thought I made it fairly clear that I'm rather cynical about websites such as the one discussed here. I deliberately mentioned that although I would like to sell privately, the last three sales have all been through agents. I have defended the role of agents in the past on similar threads for that very reason - whether you like 'em or not, I firmly believe they have their uses and always will. And as you pointed out, I'm experienced, whereas others who are just starting out on the whole bewildering process, obviously have an even greater use for the services of a reliable, honest and professional agent who is able and willing to do a bit more than just put a buyer & seller in touch with each other. I thought I made it clear that I have never begrudged paying an agent's fee.

I have criticised the amount of commission charged by some, because there are some (many in fact) who really do not earn it or deserve it. But I specifically mentioned 5, 4 & 3%. Since you have stated that you charge a very reasonable 2.5%, clearly you are exempt from my wrath! You mentioned all the "extras" that you provide free of charge, even when no sale results. Some agents dealing with foreigners like to use these services to justify their fees. It's true, agents get involved in far more of the sale process here than in the UK, particularly when the buyer is a foreigner who needs extra hand-holding. But having said that, as far as I know, the majority of Spanish agents, who deal almost exclusively with Spanish buyers & sellers, also charge similar fees. Maybe the Spanish agents started charging 5% because they saw the foreigners getting away with it, or maybe the foreigners just followed the lead of the Spanish agents - I don't know. Either way, the extra "free" services provided are compensated for by the commission earned when the agent eventually makes a sale. The fact that you are able to provide this service for all prospective or actual customers for just 2.5%, suggests to me that you have a higher conversion rate than many others. And I doubt that is down to luck. You talk of checking documentation, preparing detailed descriptions, qualifying buyers, matching properties to client's requirements after questioning for need etc., avoiding time-wasting sellers and so on. If all agents took a leaf out of your book, they would probably find they waste far less of their own time, let alone other's, and instead just get on with making enough sales at a fair commission, instead of depending on making a big fat fee out of the one occasional sale that accidentally lands in their undeserving lap from playing the numbers game.

The point I made about agents not caring whether they sell my property or another, was not meant as a criticism. I really don't expect any agent to show a prospective client my property and none others. They naturally want to maximise the chances of securing a sale, and will therefore of course show the client all properties on their books that (at least in some way) match their criteria. Equally, if a potential buyer comes to me privately, it would be naiive of me to think they aren't going to look at other properties. It's up to me then to do my best to sell them on the advantages of mine - tricky when you don't know what your competition is, but at least I'll have a go. But if an agent is showing several properties to their client, the only plausible reason they would have for pushing one over another (other than one seller being on a higher commision than the other - couldn't happen surely?!) would be that the only way to secure any sale is by using an alternative close: "So, Mr Buyer, which one did you prefer of the two? OK, so you're going to put a deposit down on Roberto's? Good choice!"

I reiterate that I want to sell my property, any which way, which is why I offered SSD a chance to prove that his confidence in his system is well founded. If it works, I'll be happier than him, and won't mind telling everyone so. Honestly, though? I think I will probably end up selling through an agent, and I'll be happy to see him/her get their commission - even if it does have to be 5%

 

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And back comes the new kid on the block....

.....the small fish in the big sea of Spanish real estate, getting his fins nipped by the 'big boys & girls' of this forum who clearly do not want me here.....I wonder why???

Come on guys, why do you appear to be so threatened?....could it be that I have touched a nerve? Could it be that the groundswell of public opinion around the bars, golf courses and Pool terrace barbeques, is actually that (in the main), people are disillusioned by the service given in relation to the fees charged by some Estate agents?

There is surely room for all of us in this marketplace...?

The meager fees that Internet private sales websites, such as ours are charging cannot possibly put people off of adding more 'angles of attack' when trying to sell their home?
The amount of outlay for a seller to take a private sales route in addition to letting agents try to sell their home,  is so laughably small that there is zero risk......in the words of one of our latest clients "it's got to be worth a punt!"

Good Agents, who work hard, and charge reasonable fees in the opinion of the client (like Rixxy, Georgia, and many others) are just as welcome to sellers as they have always been. We would not dispute that, it's a fact.

But if agents are trying to dissuade people from using websites such as ours, or from selling privately full stop, or if they are restricting sellers in any way, …..then those sellers (and for that matter potential buyers monitering this situation) must ask themselves, ‘Why?”

As an example, I spoke to a client yesterday who has recently put 'for sale' signs outside his home, on the roadside, and on his garden wall....and even on his car window because of this new found awareness of his ability to sell privately. Like so many people, he did not even realise that you do not NEED an agent to sell your home.
He had a visit from an agent (the 14th different one... I kid you not!) whom he is allowing to list his property. After he was made profuse promises of a swift sale, and had listened to a long list of lengths to which they would go,  the agent told him that in order to be 'put on the books', he must take down all of his private sale signs!

The agents motives for this are obvious, but it does illustrate that in the current climate of  buyer cautiousness, and seller desperation, the private sale route is one that is making some Estate agents very skittish.

I might add that i have also been approached already by more than one agent, wanting me to 'exchange' the private details of the sellers on our website, in exchange for a 50% cut of their commission, that they were telling me would come from the buyer!!!!!

Suffice to say I did not entertain the notion long enough to find out how on earth they thought they could make this work.

 

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Hi Roberto - I dont think I misonterpreted your post at all, I just wanted to highlight and further explain a couple of the good points you made - many people are inexperienced in buying and selling in a foreign country and would perhaps read your posting in an adverse way - I know you know your stuff and are very level headed and pragmatic.

The old traditional way for agenst to sell anothers property was to add a fee (not necesarily a percentage) on to the price the owner wanted. The Spanish have a totally different mentailty to selling items, they decide what price they want and even if the market dictates it is too high, they will wait in some cases years for a buyer - usually increasing the price by above inflation! Land can sit in the family for generations until sold - its quite incredible and one of the reasons I am reluctant to take property from a spaniard! However they are excellent buyers but hard negotiators!

Also negotiating and bartering is in their blood, and therefore if someone is daft enought o pay the asking price its in the sellers interest! So back to the commission history - as prices pre 95/97 were so low, one could NOT make a living on a percentage - I was here then and while brand new villas on 550sqm plots were selling at 30,000 sterling via the odd uk agent, for example the studios in the PYR and Las Palmeras hotel furngirola were 2.5 - 3 million pesetas - at that time around 8-10k sterling! So sod all to be made at even 5%!! Therefore the practice of net rate to owner. And if another agent had the client, there could be effectively 2 or 3 commissions added on! Foreigners had no idea of prices or that properties do not have to be registered at the notary if there is no mortgage involved! (yup - Im a wealth of information and how to avoid all sorts of pitfalls, its the legal training in me to find and either eradicate or exploit loopholes!)

After a time prices rose and with the advent of off plans, percentages were included in the sales price to effectively hide them from the buyer. The big agencies held developers to ransom whereby they would go to overseas exhibitions and promote, bring clients etc and often would either get exclusivity (Szekeley, Interealty, Ocean, Viva etc) OR demand a larger cut of the profit as commission. The developer would work out him margin and then increase by the commission demanded for the agent. The agreement in the main being that if the property was sold by the developer via a walk in off the street, the price would not be dropped and indeed in most cases of exclusivity the agent would argue as its their high profile pushing that development, they should be paid anyway.

So hence the high commissions - the Spanish agents realised they would have to do the same and so the average of 5% came around - I beleibe in France its the same and all countries have differing ways of paying, some charge a fee to both the buyer and the seller (Italy)

Yes I agree if I have a buyer looking at 2 props I will try to strike a deal with at least one of them - I guess another advantage over an advert where the buyer can easily walk away without making any decision.

SSD - I have absolutely no problem with you offering what you do, I dont find you a threat in the slightest and in fact welcome your website. We do place a se;ection of our owners properties on all sorts of free websites to push for as much exposure possible (again use of our time!), after all if I sell someones unit fast, they tell their freinds and colleagues and I get more business and equally higher rankings on Google, so I look at the bigger picture. I do not see you as a threat in the slightest, you and I work in differing areas despite being in the same business - it would be akin to me having a go at anyone advertising their proeprty on the TV.

No - what I do not like is your tone and attitude that your site and method is above and far better than the real estate business. Even the big boys whom I am not keen on offer some form of a service even if its just that their name and web ranking brings in a buyer to look at what they have.

When you first posted on this site you immediatey and blatently pushed what you do by attacking others and despite the rules of no commercial postings you blatently placed your website address within the posting, something none of us have done as we respect the rules and it is not the way to professionally promote your business!

Hence we will defend ourselves, not because we are threatened - after all I have over 22 years in the business, I am well established here in Spain and people come to me from hearing my reputation - not bandied around by myself but by others including the international media and TV!

I guess the real root of my strong feeling of anger towards you is that your posts assume there is a stupidity inherent of buyers and that they should not have a freedom of choice - all agents are bad and even bad agents are terrible.

After all, as Roberto says, if you want to sell and go through an agent charging 7% and they sell it for you, as the seller you dont care!

Freedom of all to do what they want!!

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Rixxy:- you say "I guess the real root of my strong feeling of anger towards you is that your posts assume there is a stupidity inherent of buyers and that they should not have a freedom of choice"

Oh dear, oh dear...

That is the complete opposite of everything that I am saying Rixxy..., and it is also the opposite of what our website is all about...having the freedom of choice is EXACTLY what we are encouraging.
What we are saying is that quite often people just do not necessarily know what choices they have, that does not make them stupid in our book.....Vunerable to agents yes, but stupid NO.

I implore you to read the content of my posts more carefully...

I say:-

"(in the main), people are disillusioned by the service given in relation to the fees charged by some Estate agents?"

" There is surely room for all of us in this marketplace...?"

"Good Agents, who work hard, and charge reasonable fees in the opinion of the client (like Rixxy, Georgia, and many others) are just as welcome to sellers as they have always been. We would not dispute that, it's a fact."

.....Does that really sound like somebody saying that "all agents are bad, and even bad agents are terrible" - those are your words, my friend... not mine.

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My words borne from your original posting.

Yes there is room for all - I do not go around attacking other methods or other businesses in order to promote my own. Your posts are so blatently pushing your site at the expense of others and any innocent and inexperienced buyer AND sellers could actually believe you!

As you state yourself, one would have to look on your site to read about this which obviously is aimed at getting those people to look at your site in the first place!

Btw, my 'friends' know me well and would not be agressive to someone who is as passionate about my work and in ensuring a fair deal for all  as I am.

So, reply away, I cant be arsed with this anymore, ading fuel to the fire only serves to keep this posting high up and anyway  the PMs I have received show support from others on this site who also dont particularly like your blatent advertising of your business either

Good luck with it - Im off to the beach

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Several threads devoted to two way slating of Ocean Estates and their friends retort. It seems some of you have finally got your wishes. I was sent this quote yesterday from another real estate forum:

'Ocean Estates

---

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"Another one bites the dust"

Another large estate agent closes it's doors today in Torrevieja.

With any luck at this rate Myself,Rixxy,Gillespie,SJ and a few others will be the only one's left who were wise enough to see that big overheads and flashy exhibitions come back to "bite you in the arse"!!.

I can see a massive saturation of office space and fleets of cars coming available soon.

Georgia

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Who is that then Georgia??

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Come on Georgai - reveal all! I know of a couple of larger agents letting staff go, Roan is one of them!

Does that mean we have to carry on working???

I was hoping to be made redundant and then sit on the beach all day long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Hi, I've just read through this thread and what I cannot understand is why 'ssd' has been blatently allowed to continue with his not so subersive advertising??           

Answers in triplicate please!!!

Whose gone but then Georgia???

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Dont worry about it Karensun - if you check the site out you will see why none of us are bothered!

Got too much work to do anyway - and its sooooooooooooooo hot today!

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On SSD - still waiting for a response   'Nuff said.....

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The SSD thingy upset some of us because the first post that was edited said "look at my blog for advice on selling houses" and it turned out to be his website!!!

The agent that has gone was quite a big player but has now downsized to working from home,Parador have now cut there staff levels from approx 100 to 25 so they must be feeling the pinch!!!!

Hot here too!!!!! running around with a brolly last week!!!

Georgia

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Yes, I can see now why you lot aren't worried!!  Anyway you've all proved your worth over and over.

Just think it's wrong that they should be able to advertise in this underhand way.

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