Build Quality?

Yet again Norman, correct. I have been in one of these small apartments and have enjoyed the conversation of the neighbours, through paper thin walls. Thank God the Good Lady and I, were not at War during this period. I love the general area with some real quality build, further towards Castello, on the beach side. This site was promised, a Gym and other facilities such as a shopping complex, what has happened, nothing. Norman correct, you did not complete and if they wish they can SUE .

Completing on an off plan property that doesn't match the contract is not only very stupid but very wrong. For anyone to say complete and then take the breaches of contract to court in Spain, must either be on the crooked side of the property/legal industry or have a total lack of knowledge of how poor the justice system is in Spain.  The only way to stop the hopeless lack of regulation/corruption leading to quality and and a host of other problems is for people to refuse to accept this abuse. Thank heavens many on here have had the balls to do that. They are the same people with the moral fibre to form  petitions and do what ever is needed to stand up for those so obviously conned by the spineless crooks, virtually backed by the Spanish system.

In a civalised system, you shouldn't need to take a serious case of 'breach of contract' to court, there are common sense building reg' rules to back you long before it reaches court and lawyers whose itegrity can be taken for granted. The sad truth is that Spains system is so wrong by lacking decent regulation, that the victims of the abuse who have the courage to stand up to crooked developers/agents/lawyers/local planning etc etc, are often faced with similar abuse by the very justice system they have rely on to put things right?.  

The evidence (as if any more were needed???) of this abuse is now there for everyone to see in the supurb petitions raised. The reality of the facts are not in question.

Shame on any selfish ar*eholes who contribute to this forum who are not firmly behind all those cheated, those supporting those cheated and anyone fighting for justice by standing up for their rights however long that might take?

Technoape  in my opinion you are neither reasonable or  sensible .Indeed I find you the most arrogant and offensive poster on this forum. It seems to me that you are single handedly ruining this once brilliant forum for all .   and are one of the  main reasons that so many don't post anymore !!!!!!! Perhaps it is time you took a good hard look at yourself . Regards JA

I have said I wouldn't post anymore directly due to technoape and another. I am just a reader now.

Just had to post though, one last time, in agreement with Julie Ann and you others.

We had ways of dealing with bullies, when I was at school, many years ago.

I will not be abused, ridiculed, accused or  bullied.

Best of luck to all, whatever your situation.

Mick

Mick

thanks, and good luck to you also.

Dear Rod,

thank you for your offer but I don't have any current plans myself but will if allowed pass it on to family members who of course were to be the main and future users of Casares.

Like Techno's your photos look very good with yours more holiday oriented, golf etc.

Can I ask if it was bought off-plan?

Regards

Norman

I suspect that many who completed at CDS (as with many other developments) were under either pressure from lawyers/agents who were not independent from the developer, or they had been given wrong information regarding their legal rights for breach of contract, and felt that they had little option but to complete.

Most likely, many lawyers who had not ensured that Bank Guarantees were in place, were in fear of repercussions if the purchaser found out that the contractual agreement for provision of the BG lay with the Banks and that they (the lawyers) had not ensured that this provision was in place (as per the contract) prior to signing the contract, nor had they ensured that purchasers deposited monies had been placed into secure special Bank accounts as per the Law 57/68. These are the laws, which Maria and others are now using to challenge the Banks, to ensure Banks are made accountable for offplan deposits. 

All the more reason for us now to push for correction to the system, to ensure that purchasers know their rights and the Banks obligations with regard to offplan purchase, to ensure that legal professionals no longer remain in ignorant bliss (if this is the case), to ensure that purchasers no longer should deal with lawyers who are not independent of developers, and thereby gain transparency throughout the real estate industry which should benefit all good professionals in the longer term, and likewise ensure accountability by all those responsible for their actions.

In some cases I suspect lawyers who fell foul of this have endeavoured to put good their ignorance/mistakes by following through with breach of contract cases. Yes, some may argue that this lined their pockets, but the reality is that what should have been a straight forward case of claiming return of monies against Bank Guarantee for those who had suffered breach of contract by the developer, instead found themselves without a BG necessary to effect speedy return of their monies (all of which was illegal I might add as according to Maria the Banks were entrusted to protect purchasers’ deposited monies relating to offplan purchase from the outset).

And here is where the abuse continued. Many of those who chose not to complete on substandard properties or other forms of breach of contract, without BG's in place, then followed through the procedure for breach of contract against the developer (under advice from their lawyers) and had to face not only a costly route for justice, but also to add to their sense of injustice and horror, the existing Spanish justice system failed them, so they endured lengthy procedures, with little guarantees of return of monies due to major administrative delays, and in some cases inconsistent judgements.

And the end result? Developers then abused the system further to ensure that they placed appeals knowing more delays would ensue, and what did many developers do in the interim? Yes they asset stripped while the delays grew and grew, and thereafter lived in the hope that many could not afford to continue their fight for their legitimate return of monies as per their cases for breach of contract, that ironically by this stage had been proven via court judgements in the purchasers favour. In the interim once cases had been won for breach of contract, the lawyers placed preliminary embargoes to ensure return of monies as per the successful judgements (frequently this included costs and interest in the purchasers favour). BUT,  the legal system failed them YET AGAIN, as the delays then resulted in embargoes being ineffective (no liquid assets left to embargo) or the developer went into administration before the embargo was able to be implemented . All, I might add, because of failures within the legal administration system.

As for those who find themselves in the unenviable position of their developer going into administration, who gets first call on any assets?…….yes, you’ve guessed it…… the Banks, who were the perpetrators in the first place. And then the procedure becomes even lengthier (and more costly) as  alternative routes are explored......... what a nonsense and how WRONG!

But to add to purchaser's woes (as if that wasn't enough) suggestions are now being made to do deals with the very Banks who were wrong in the first place. The same Banks that placed them at risk from the outset. More nonsense. WE HAVE TO MAKE THE BANKS ACCOUNTABLE.

The failure of the justice administration system in my eyes is the major cause for concern here, as without these delays, legitimate successful cases for breach of contract would have been resolved (at appeal), interim embargoes would have been effected (monies placed into court accounts as per successful legal judgements) thus making the developer accountable for their breach of contract. BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN NECESSARY, had the Bank Guarantee been made available and the monies placed into special accounts as per the Law 57/68 as purchaser's contracts stipulated from the outset. 

So where does this leave us?

WE HAVE TO MAKE THE BANKS ACCOUNTABLE.

All need to sign and provide evidence to Keith’s petition www.bankguaranteesinspain.com

The evidence thereafter should ultimately identify all monies owed to purchasers “stuck” within the system and identify abusive timescales that have compromised purchasers for rightful return of monies.

It should identify the numbers of purchasers awaiting return of monies.

 And as Keith has rightly and expressly identified we need the following to happen:

1). Any purchaser not provided with the legally required Bank Guarantee is refunded immediately in accordance with LEY 57/68.

2) Any purchaser in possession of a Bank Guarantee, where the developer has clearly defaulted on the contract, is able to execute the Bank Guarantee, in accordance with Ley 57/68 without need for litigation.

3). Fast track courts be established.

4). The Spanish government and Banco de Espana must immediately set up a fund to underwrite the refunds on all Bank Guarantee cases.

5) The Spanish Government and Banco de Espana must act now to ensure the abuse being suffered by innocent off-plan purchasers in Spain is ended immediately and that it is never allowed to happen again.

If the Banco de Espana and Spanish government fail to act within defined timescales on the above issues, then, armed with evidence, we ask the European Parliament and European Commission to take firm and effective action demanding that these very serious financial illegalities are addressed as a matter of extreme urgency.

Keith needs your evidence. Please make it available via his petition www.bankguaranteesinspain.com .

Keith can’t say it any clearer than that…

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a brilliant post. Cuts through all the crap and tells it exactly as it is for many of us cheated.  There should be no more excuses or delays in getting monies returned to the victims of this abuse by the banks. Even some who have BG's are having trouble getting their money returned from the banks and again this is where the government should step in with fast and worthwhile regulation, as it should where any serious breaches of contract such as build quality/size etc, have taken place with no attempt to right the wrong by the guilty party.  Again, no excuses for delays or failing in their duties are acceptable. We have all had enough of the lies and deception, we just want decent justice that's well overdue, and that means one thing only, money returned with no strings attached.

Norman i brought this property off a greek gentleman who paid his deposit could not complete so he assigned the contract to me it was a shell when i paid over the money so i had a good idea what i was getting it cost 200000 euros

I even scaled 3 floors of scaffold one Sunday just to make sure it had a view of the ocean

We had a few problems with the developer took him to court and he settled with some cash and a property he still owned which the community sold

All in all its turned out ok we get 11000 a year on rentals so it washes its face

Regards Rod

www.ournextholiday.co.uk

Rod you were one of the lucky ones where the developer hadn't  stripped his liquid assets or been declared insolvent in the interim! A highly unlikely scenario these days.

Ads hild inb a second even now we deal with lots of new completions every month and most are going through without any real problems, even now the properties on Polaris Resorts so it actually as bad as you are painting things but of course yiu rarely hear with things don´t go wrong

There are also still some excellent developers out there, people like TM, Quara, and Los Collindos

The biggest problem remains that the properties are worth less than the original contract value

Ads i did get my fingers burnt prior to this purchase Ocean estates tried to sucker me into a shoe box with no views at 350k i nearly lost 3000 euros but got it back after a few heated phone calls

I think the situation that you and others who have lost large amounts is terrible i can remember losing a significant amount of money in the late 90s on the stockmarket and it upset me for nearly 5 yrs.

If anything good comes out of a situation which causes loss it helps you not to make the same mistake again because you are wiser.

But for some people like Norman Sands its worse because he is unable to recover that loss by future succesful investment decisions because of the age he is and he wont mind me saying that as he has posted that view himself.

What was your situation ADS as there are so many links, streams,posts etc

Regards Rod

www.ournextholiday.co.uk

Rod,

We won case for breach of contract against developer after all manner of delaying tactics, but they illegally asset stripped whilst we awaited preliminary enforcement order (had to wait 13 months between petitioniong and issuing enforcement!) .... still awaiting resolution from developer's appeal some 2 years after the appeal was placed and potentially another year before resolution reached. Disgraceful administrative delays have significantly compromised return of monies as per original legal judgement (like so many people these days). Fearful that developer will go into administration in the interim in which case we would not be classed as preferential creditors and Banks will take preference. Ironic as it was the Bank's non provision of BG as per the law that compromised our executive rights for speedy return of monies from the outset. So we are now exploring this option for return of monies. Not a pretty picture I'm afraid.

Dear All,

Thank you Rod and Roy that is the sort of straight talking the forum needs. spot on.

Very valuable to have sound recommendations from experience. priceless.

Even in my position, heartwarming to hear of success and see it demonstrated as it should have been for all of us.

Any investment can be hit by the market changing.

I am ironically financially far better off than those that completed on the "shoeboxes".

Had I managed to complete, I never would of course, you just could not persuade me to accept "the emporers new clothes", I would now have a huge mortgage on a very substandard fraud property which I would have to try to let long term since I would not wish to stay there. I would have a substandard mortgage, pay huge community fees to try to sustain the property and make modest improvements. That is after I have re-plastered and re-rendered to keep the rain out, re-drained the area to stop the garage flooding, re-fenced the terrace to make it safe for children, somehow made the kitchen safe etc. etc. etc.

As Jerry says they are now worth a fraction of the cost and there is no promise of a recovery in the foreseeable future. While these properties stagnate into ever increasing maintenance costs the mortgage would be grinding on relentlessly eating up my pension without relief.

Unfortunately you would have difficulty persuading my family to go on holiday and make the best of things behind fences on this site. The first time they heard the neighbours "at it" they would want to move out. They quite rightly would rather be in somewhere like Rods or a caravan .The proposed purchase was of course mainly for the children as an inheritance investment, which of course makes the loss worse. I cannot repeat it unless there is recovery of deposit.

I don't even know whether such losses can be offset against my pension PAYE?

Thank you again

Regards

Norman