Build Quality?

 Dear All,

I am concerned at the silly nonsense that is posted about specification and build quality by the spin members on this forum.

This is the “kitchen” I was offered as mine in the “highest luxury” penthouse apartment that was supposed to satisfy the contract specification for the new closed holiday complex with every holiday facility that I had agreed to buy. The specification was of such peak luxury that it was going to set a new standard as the highest luxury on the Costa del Sol.

You will note few basic cupboards, the single bowl tiny sink, the insufficient space to site the hob safely away from the fridge carcase, the couple of shelves in place of a corner unit, the off centre extractor with taped top to the chimney and of course the width, just wide enough for a galley kitchen in a caravan.

One also wonders what creatures are to inhabit the reserved spaces on top of the cupboards?

Techno tells us that he knows people who are very happy with this level of luxury and are pleased they completed.

The rest of the apartment was to the same woeful standard but apparently luxury to some?????????

Regards

Norman

This message was last edited by normansands on 06/12/2010.

We have cupboards above out sink, but it is a drainer where you can place the plates cups etc!!!! 

Quite handy really I love it thought it was a good idea.

Would like to see a better picture of the kitchen Norman it must be larger than that surely!!!

Pat  

 There isn't room to swing a cat!

And HOW much was this going to cost you?

Poor Norman

Dear All,

this is Casares del Sol, the new highest luxury standard front line golf penthouse on the CDS, "built" by Interlaken and marketed by Mediterranean Luxury Homes at 425,000Euros as an off-plan bargain. Site to be fully closed holiday complex with every known holiday facility, in exclusive tropical gardens.

Take a look if passing.

One is currently available fully furnished for 99,000Euros.

I have described it as a "council" flat but the kitchen would not even pass for that with no safe building regs. A total fraud.

Regards

Norman

Blimey. I would have expected and wanted a detached villa for over 400,000 euros rather than an apartment, even in the height of the 'property boom'!!

I can fully appreciate you pulling out of the contract, Norman, but what is curious, is the fact that you committed yourself to a huge investment, based on drawings and floor plans. Did you spend time investigating what else was available in the local area before signing on the dotted line or look further afield to other parts of Spain to compare prices, building design and specifications?

The ironic thing about all this is that you insist on continually calling people who are happy with their lot in Spain as 'the sillies'!

This message was last edited by wend691 on 11/12/2010.

I know the  area of Casares Costa very well.

However  Casares del Sol is by far the worst development in the area.  Some of the real luxury apartments not far from Casares del Sol have not been selling in the boom time for that  amount! and they are 100% nicer! Sorry Norman.

Dear All,

there has been all manner of enquiry on the development forum concerning the lack of promised built area, the fraud includes reducing that, calculating in stairs and stair wells, cupboards in garages etc. etc. every trick in the book. Additional blocks were built and pool numbers reduced and the land for the "holiday complex facilities" was not even owned. The closed site had no planning permission so is open through, etc. etc.

The front-line golf claim was another fraud there is no golf course to front.

The brochure of course was superb.

So many people assume that it is all there to see, or will be along later, it is in the pipeline? except that it is not, it is in a pipeline of dream fraud. Yet the whole site was to be architect checked and approved.

Many also assume that the punters will learn, but that is a mistake, if the £ takes off and there is another boom, the property shows will start up again and all the same lies will be told and endorsed by the lawyers. There is just no sanction yet in place.

Georgia says things have already changed but there is a distinct lack of endorsement so far.

I once asked a site architect in a restaurant how occupation certificates were obtained for unsafe properties and he explained by tapping the side of his nose.

So many people completed only because the lawyer assured them they would lose their deposit if they did not. Others even believed the "Techno" line that you should complete and then sue the developer for what is missing. They even completed and then banded together to go for the developer in a "class action". The forum is silent on that one.

I took the view that I had no interest whatsoever in a residential unit of any knid, if there was no holiday complex then there was nothing of interest. Also of course that I have little time left to await miracles, which of course is what would be required to transform what was there into what was in the brochure.

I have labelled people silly not because they are happy but because they falsley post such spin in the hope of influencing the market and off-loading their mistakes. There was a great deal of that early on because many had bought contracts on multiple properties and to me that is just another fraud.

Some even post petulent ,critical, bored, indifferent offensive posts whilst  they have property advertised for sale.

Money I am afraid can turn people.

One holidaymaker who stayed reported that neighbours could be heard breathing in the next apartment and you could converse with them without raising your voice. That is not my idea of build quality.

Regards

Norman

"The ironic thing about all this is that you insist on continually calling people who are happy with their lot in Spain as 'the sillies'!"

Ah! That must be why Norman calls me a "sillie" because I spent less on my 3-bed 2.5 bath Townhouse, complete with 3 terraces, large roof top solarium, private garden and private garage and store rooms, than the 70% he paid for the obviously ludicrously over-priced, off-plan apartment , and then wrote off all that money by not completing!

Our build quality is excellent, as I have always maintained there is a vast difference in build quality of properties in Spain, new and old alike!

This is what I bought:

Building Specs - As you can see, we have some insulation!

Floor Plans - My property is the 'Superior' 3-bed, which has the same floor plan, however is much larger and has private garden.

Photos - There are pictures of two Kitchens, mine is identical to the one in Oak!

I've converted parts of the garage into a 4th Bedroom and also a separate storage room, leaving a 2 car garage and store room.

So we can all see you were caught out at Casaras Del Sol, nobody is denying that fact. However the people I know paid substantially less for a key ready apartment, and are very happy with what they have for what they paid!

That's your problem Norman, your not happy that others are happy, and seek to discredit every thing they say!

"Others even believed the "Techno" line that you should complete and then sue the developer for what is missing."

Norman, I never said that and you know it!

What I said was to pay the final amount into a Notarised account, and then instruct your Lawyer to issue Court Proceedings! That way the Developer cannot sue you for Breach of Contract, nor can they re-sell the property, as you are still both bound by the contract until the Court Proceedings are resolved.

Other people have stated that it is better to complete on a property and then go to court!

I then agreed at least that is better than loosing everything!

What I also stated was:

If you have entered into a standard off-the-shelf purchase contract, then unless you have a clause stipulated in the contract similar to:

"final payment will only be made upon agreement by both parties that the property supplied is as stated in this purchase agreement"

then you have to make the final payment, otherwise a Judge in Spain will consider you as being in Breach of Contract.

Wining a Court Case in Spain comes down to what you have, or do not have, written into your Purchase Contract.

"I have labelled people silly not because they are happy but because they falsely post such spin in the hope of influencing the market and off-loading their mistakes."

As you can see, I have not made a mistake! And I do not intend to sell my house, or my apartment.

"Some even post petulant ,critical, bored, indifferent offensive posts whilst  they have property advertised for sale."

I do not!

"Money I am afraid can turn people."

Yes! I see that it can Norman!

Dear Techno,

as usual you get things wrong and you are more forgetfull than I am, something you should watch.

I have already complimented you on your purchase when you posted a couple of photos earlier, but thankyou for the additional info, it looks very good and I am glad you are happy with it, whatever it's current value.

If ever I come back to CDS I shall make contact and you can carry out your promise and show me round.

However it is not terribly relevant since you did not buy off-plan and indeed you have already told us you never would.

I am delighted that you have confirmed that all developments were not fraudulent, I take it that this one would have been available off-plan if you had acted earlier.

I am also pleased that you have found people pleased with residential units at Casares, you call it "key ready" which I assume means not off-plan. You may recall we have followed this route before and we explored the possibility that being such a large residential site the build quality may vary across it. Which would make us both right and if that is the case then anyone buyng a better built "key ready" apartment for a reasonable market price at the time would not be unhappy and could not be called silly. Hopfully they would have made that clear in any contradictory post they may have made.

Whilst visiting Casares we saw other sites, purely residential that appeared much better also, there was even one which appeared closed with only one gated entrance.

So perhaps off-plan can be successful in Spain?

Perhaps you can now understand why I was stunned with shock at what I was offered as my holiday penthouse and was just unable to consider completion.

However lets be clear once again, I paid a deposit of 30% and that is all, the supposed mortgage which was said to be already in place on erery apartment was to cover the rest.

This is becoming very civilised, thank you.

Regards

Norman

I have stayed away from posting in EOS  .. apart from the very occasional post since July I think it is, when I decided it was of some relevance .. because it has descended into the most atrocious member bashing event between a handful of members. I've been on the receiving end myself on many occasions in the past, despite my endless efforts to help others & that's why I don't post. I have, however, been watching the forum.

I distinctly remembered what I saw that Technoape posted & I've searched so I can post the actual post, it was in http://www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-12055.aspx 

Techno you certainly did post on 30 Nov 2010 21:41in the thread above

'Not completing, even on a substandard build, is breach of contact!

You have to complete and then take the builder/promoter to court.'

You said it @ chills but it was directed towards Norman!

(irrespective of what you say in an earlier post in this thread 11 Dec 2010 17:36) which was repeating first in green what Norman posted then in blue what you posted.

"Others even believed the "Techno" line that you should complete and then sue the developer for what is missing."

Norman, I never said that and you know it!

30 Nov 2010 21:41 TechNoApe I live in Duquesa, Manilva I have made 1121 forum posts Send private message to TechNoApe

@chills "before final completion, at the Inspection Stage, noted a substandard build and therefore did not complete." Not completing, even on a substandard build, is breach of contact! You have to complete and then take the builder/promoter to court. or... Pay your last payment into a notarised account, and wait for the builder/promoter to take you to court, and then argue your case! Not completing will result in you loosing everything, and to advocate to others that they do the same is insidious to say the least!   This message was last edited by TechNoApe on 30/11/2010.

Norman, you were right in NOT accepting your property.

 Whoooooops!!!!!!!!!!

As the saying goes,

"You've got to have a good memory to be a good..........................................................."

But perhaps, as I have suspected for some time, it is the hot weather and a surfeit of cervezas  that brings on these 'internet forum' outbursts and episodes of forgetfulness.

Well Spotted Madam.

I have been reluctant to post here because any comment is taken as spin. I completed in CDS. Build quality is fair, the apartment is small and the initial site finish was poor. However, we completed because because we realised that the off plan contract was not detailed enough to sustaina legal challenge and we did not wish to lose our deposit. Sinse we completed, our Community has done sterling work with no help from the Developer to provide secure fencing and controlled access, much improved gardens which are now looking very well and other improvements. Of course the value is a fraction of what we paid but we can now enjoy very pleasant holidays there. We recognise that values have collapsed across Spain but we are content that we can enjoy our holiday base. Having given our position, we fully understand Norman's position. Many couldnt complete without a secure rental income and walked away. Neither side should have been in that position, but the consumer has little protection and the Developers default is compounded by the general market collapse. We have chosen to accept what we have and make the best of it.

As most people know I run a company specialising in snagging, I have checked thousands of properties in Spain,  and more importanty we end up managing the repair process and dealing with the disputes

The law relating to the completion process is very well defined in this area relating to the specific rights regarding completion and includes the right that if the property has. significant defects, or does not meet the agreed specification, as detailed in the contract, that the client can refuse to complete, cancel the contract and claim costa and damages

MOST IMPORTANTLY YOU MUST COLLECT EVIDENCE FOR ANY CASE, PHOTOGRAPHS AND ACCURATE MEASUREMENTS 

I have an article published on this forum which explains more about  these rights but significant defects are not typical type snagging defects, poor paint, cracking plaster, broken tiles or ill fitting windows or doors.

Significant defects that we have found ground on have been bad water ingress, septic tanks not included or in the wrong place, kitchens not fitted, subsidence, flooded underbuilds, hazardous areas around the properties

You can also refuse if the property does meet the agreed specification but most of the problems here are that there is sufficent infpormation in the contract but we have found developments where the property sizes total meterage has been wrong, the plot sizes wrong, missing terraces, entery systems, where the orientation of the property is wrong and even once where the 5 properties were in the totally wrong pahse of the development and had been sold twice

Baed on the example of the kitchen, even though it may not be described as luxury these may not be grounds to refuse to complete as the defects can be modified and cupboards over sinks are very common

Most of the problems are that there is insufficent detailed information in the contract and the little clause that says that the developer can change the specification as he deems necessary, I always advise people to photograph and record the specification of any showhouse and get this cause removed

How do you agree what constitutes a luxury apartment but if the spcification varies dramatically from the showhose you then have good grounds to make a case 

The developer can legally reduce the internal meterage of a property by up to 10% without compensating the buyer and then if this goes to court they may accept a price reduction as being reasonable.

On one golf development we found 6 villas where they taken 20% of their gardens to extend the golf course but they got their gardens back

The most important advise is of course to check the property will before completion, make sure that the property has been cleaned before you inspect and record everything on your own list as well as the developers snagging list. That the snagging list includes a writted agreement on how long it will take to repair the defects and is included with The legal paperwork whn you complete at The Notary so that it becomes part of the contract

Technoape observed "Wining a Court Case in Spain comes down to what you have, or do not have, written into your Purchase Contract. ".

Not so, according to Maria, who has suggested that abusive contract clauses can be (and have been) successfully challenged and presumably presented as evidence within ongoing breach of contract cases. Just as non provision of Bank Guarantees by the Banks are now in the early stages of being challenged. So who is correct? Perhaps Maria can confirm.

To those who have completed on CDS, may I query if the developer is still contributing towards the maintenance fees for those apartments that did not go to completion?  If not, then how much is this costing the community per year?  Is the developer in debt to the community? And if so by how much? How much has each person had to contribute towards the landscaping and the security of the site (it was marketed as a gated community wasn't it?). Have onsite facilities been provided that were supposed to act as winter incentives for purchasers and/or rental, i.e. indoor sports facilities, spa etc? Did the developer indeed own the land or have a licence for facilities that they were marketing for use in this way on this "exclusive" development? Have the onsite Aparthotel and advertised "shared facilities" been made available with onsite management for apartment maintenance and rental management?

I would be interested to know if this development that you completed on provided anything remotely like the marketing literature that was advertised? Did you in effect purchase something you never intended to buy? Isn't your compromise of putting good these major deficiencies just perpetuating the status quo with little disincentive for the developer to continue with his abusive practices? By completing on a substandard product (according to the marketing literature that acts as part of the contract) haven't you allowed the developer to do exactly what he intended i.e. to provide nothing remotely like the product you intended to buy? Weren't these abuses occurring before the start of the recession?

So long as these developer ongoing abuses are allowed to continue and the lack of consumer protection remains a legal lottery, then there will be little incentive to buy in Spain. And so long as these developers (and Banks who failed to provide bank guarantees according to the law) are not made accountable for their actions and the legal administration system abuses go unchallenged, you will be, (very sadly), perceived by all those fighting for reform and recognition of their rights, as perpetuating the abuse. Hardly a longer term solution is it?