Maria,

We are all too well aware that sadly the CGPJ is no longer an effective route of complaint, so long as the response from them is consistently "according to the internal organization and the general rules consequently there is not a "real delay".  This is not to say that we shouldn't keep reporting these incidents (which is important) but to state that the rules by which they are working are not protecting the consumer in any way or form.

In reality there appears to be no reasonable time constraints in place, which surely is a basic necessity for good legal practice. The emphasis hopefully will be to get the government/Ministry of Justice  to address the wording of these rules, to swiftly provide guidelines to the judiciary to identify and ensure that reasonable time constraints are adhered to until such time as the new online procedures are in place.

If this requires extra resource in the interim, then so be it. Spain and legal professionals will suffer as a consequence if this basic requirement is not swiftly addressed, as sadly the Spanish Justice system is increasingly globally viewed as a mockery. All the good is being over-ridden by the bad, and no matter how much the legal professionals try to work around the problems, the basic underlying problem relating to the impact of judicial delays and consistent rulings on the application of justice will not go away.

I am grateful that you are taking this seriously and hope and trust that other good legal firms will swiftly follow suit to the benefit of all. Please keep us posted of events and let's hope that the momentum can grow  to effect a justice system that is seen to apply the full rule of law rather than half measures (i.e. only to the point of first instance win) as appears to be the case right now.

To all others I state that it is imperative that we as a consumer group do not become divisive, each defending (or otherwise) particular lawyers. The reasons for different law firms stance and disaggreements should in no way diminsh our resolve to stand united in the struggle for justice. I just hope that law firms can put aside their personal disagreements, to rise above the emotive language, for the good of us all and move forward together with a common purpose, to good effect.

Maria

I do not think anyone denies that there has to be fees asked for in order to pay your staff and for you to survive.  It is the continual drip feeding of curruption that is very evident throughout.  I dont mind paying a fee for a job done but the job is never done, it just continues on and on and on.  Time constraints would be important because it gives one hope.  The outstanding problems will remain until the legal professionals put their heads together.  We are surely all the fire power you need if you truly want to be an outstanding professional, the evidence alone just on EOS is overwhelming for change to be implemented.

I want to say a big thank you to Justin and the team for this forum it is certainly the only way to air your views with so many being in the same boat.  It actually screams 'let their be justice'.

Regards Chrissie1

I am prepared to take it, but I need help. I have so much work I need to be taking care of.... any volunteer?

Dear All,

I am grateful as always for this forum and peoples' efforts to "tell it like it is", "warts and all" for us to judge.

I understand the necessity for some things to be held back and respect the pm system, though personally do not use it that much.

But I see no reason why simple fees for services need to be hidden by any party.

Goodstitch - just "tell it like it is" - it is simple.

As to professional fees generally, I am used to tendering for work and of course at the time of tendering these are kept confidential in case there is any further negotiation etc.

After tendering is completed fees are normally known especially if some sort of standard scale is used.

Maria, I can see judging fees is extremely difficult with the ridiculous timescales you are dealing with, just look what has happened to the market in recent times, my deposit is now sufficient to buy the whole, key ready, though the developer neglected to build the whole whole.

However this is just a further abuse your system places on the victims and yourself.

Ads has clearly stated that your system is a mockery and to be despised by all, unfortunately we cannot ignore it.

you have posted on your blog the most alarming news re. cross border debts......

it is totally frightening and makes me want to exit the EU pronto

as I have commented.......

"Oh no, no, no, no, no.

The corruption in Spain is such that it should have already been excluded from Europe.

There will be no effective protection for the unfortunate consumer

It must be stopped."

If anyone has any doubts about what the banks and others will be up to next read Peter's story

Everyone hopes that things will get better.................... they could actually get worse.

Regards

Norman

Maria

Presumably you are looking for someone resident, (Spanish speaking if this needs to be addressed to other Spanish fellow professionals)?

What exactly are you looking for in a volunteer?

Bear in mind that the data protection act has to be taken into account so the analysis of data would have to be done by someone within each legal firm.

Could the evidence be easily drawn from the database that you were establishing some time back to capture info such as

Date of successful court judgement

Date the developer appealed

Date that embargo was issued or date that the preliminary enforcement order was petitioned.

Date that the preliminary enforcement order was issued.

Date of proposed final appeal decision

Date developer went into administration. etc

Or might it be easier to keep it simple and just identify the evidence from the details of all the cases that you have submitted to the CGPJ?

Or ask clients to provide evidence (if they have been provided with this level of detail) from a basic questionnaire? (This could be standardised for all legal firms).

Alternatively do you have any automated statistics to draw upon to substantiate the evidence of those caught up in major delays? Or is there any statistical data source from the courts that you can call upon that might be required to be made available under the freedom of information act that could identify those cases awaiting final appeal decisions or those clients who have submitted forms relating to developer administration? In fact do you as legal professionals have the right to request these statistical details from the Justice Department? Would they be trustworthy statistics .

Do you have any standardised statistics within the legal profession that you are obliged to retain or submit  on an annual basis by the Jusitce Department that might provide the relevant statistical evidence?

Just some ideas to consider......

Or is this evidence gathering unnecessary and you just require a means of communicating with other legal professionals to brainstorm ideas as to how best to eradicate these crippling delays and make those responsible (the Banks?) speedily accountable.

I am thinking of somethig much simpler: a facebook group and start working from there if there are enough lawyers with same spirit.

A facebook "brainstorming" group may feel inhibited to discuss these matters in the full view of all  but it would be good for those Spanish speaking clients to gain transparency to your ideas.

maria

just a thought?. Would a simple e-mail from you, copied to lawyers throughout Spain explaining your position and your wish to unite on this matter be a start?. You would at least then get an idea on who is prepared to join you in the fight for what's right, and who is happy to carry on making money from people despite working in a system so clearly flawed. From a media/publicity point of view the results you come back with alone could be of much interest?. Once the general public know that there could be an alternative way that is far more benificial to those wronged, and that opinion comes from lawyers wanting change for the better, then perhaps with the help of all your collective evidence and the media, the tide of injustice might turn?

How can lawyers or judges for that matter truly defend the current system if they really want justice for those wronged?. I feel that those who won't support the urgent need for change will ultimately stand out as those who gain from the current system that wrongs so many.  Even if many lawyers won't join you for reasons of pride, or other reasons?, if they at least form their own groups, with a similar goal for change, to prove they no longer condone current practice, then that could be enough to start the pressure for change?

 I am sure there are many lawyers already doing whatever they can, think is right for the justice administration to improve. 

Regarding how to approach the most lawyers that we can... I do need to think about it, to be an effective exercise

Oh Dear,

what a lot of hot air blowing into the wind.....................!!!!!!!!!!!!!

surely you all know that apart from being mundane clerical workers, lawyers are specially trained to be different to ordinary humans, they are trained to be ambivalent, to be indifferent, to work for the guilty with the same vigour as they work for the innocent.

Since they meet more guilty than innocent they find it difficult to enthuse for the innocent. They have little interest in the law itself but are keenly interested in how it can be bent to suit their guilty client's purpose.

They openly seek accolades from their contemporaries for how they can make black seem white, and this is their natural disposition before even the bigC enters the fray, before even their own financial self interest is considered.

If you think you can change the thousands that have approved these off-plan contracts you are in cloud cuckoo land.

I appreciate the problem with generalisations but their truth cannot be denied.

You need a law  to bring these miscreants to heel not a survey.

Regards

Norman

It's a pity  king norman only has one brush  for his bucket of tar

Dear All,

those far more knowledgeable than I have told that the EU wont be cured until some effective zero tolerance anti-corruption legislation is in place and actually working.

No one needs to paint it black it could not be blacker and the corrupters do not want it any other way.

No prizes for guessing who are aiding and in league with those corrupters barring the citizen from his rights.

Regards

Norman

Legal tip 424. The president of lawyers for collaboration to improve Justice
05 January 2011 @ 11:17

maria

if you get a large enough amount of lawyers who are prepared to unite on the call for change, then yes it sounds good?  If the evidence you hold is clearly stated on the web site, and forms the reasons for action for change, then those unwilling to join the cause will hopefully be looked upon as those who support the current system that has failed so many. I think a show of hands from lawyers who really support a change to a fairer system is at least a step in the right direction. 

The alternative is unity from lawyers accepting the current farce that has lead to so many people being cheated, and it would be good to see those lawyers not willing to support change, named and shamed by the media.

Dear All,

"not being completely met"

implies a high percentage of satisfaction

well if all the corrupters are satisfied and the victims are not heard.........................that would be the case, the corrupters are highly satisfied.

simple really.

Regards

Norman

Maria,

It's essential that you feedback the dire impact of delays on the application of justice as things stand now and the impression that it gives to all those who see Spain as a potential place to invest in the future. Many will not be wiiling to take the risk if nothing is done to demonstrate, (in actions not words I hasten to add), that the government and Justice Department are willing and able to commit to reforming what at present is a half way system, where innocent consumers win their first instance cases but are denied recompense due to overwhelming judicial delays. We really need some reasonable time constraints in place with strict penalties and/or compensation for those denied justice. It's the only way that accountability can ever be achieved.

We also need some form of legitimate statistics in place to identify and monitor the administration of justice.Please can you discuss this with Keith as he has first hand experience now and may well have much to offer in terms of solutions from a consumer advocate point of view.

 Until the true application of justice (recompense) is made available to those who have won their cases for breach of contract but suffer the consequences of major judicial delays as developers/banks fail in their responsibilities to honour their obligations according to contracts and law 57/68, then there will be little initiative to reinvest in a country that pays scant regard to the rule of law.

Legal tip 420. NEW! Bank risponsabilities ex 1.2 Law 57/68: new case law 
31 December 2010 @ 12:03 

Hi, does anyone have a link on a spanish website for this news? This would be most useful to point my disbelieving solicitor to.

I'm hoping he will take this avenue as i cant afford to go to another more expensive solicitor.

Thanks in advance,

Paul

Hi Paul

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/12/21/suvivienda/1292960314.html

http://www.lavanguardia.es/economia/20101221/54091904319/un-tribunal-rechaza-que-los-bancos-limiten-su-aval-al-comprador.html

Kind regards

Keith

Así lo dispone una sentencia de la Audiencia Provincial de Cantabria, que condena a Caja Cantabria a responder solidariamente de la devolución de las cantidades anticipadas a cuenta, a propósito de la compra de una vivienda a una promotora.

El comprador de una vivienda, en virtud de la ley 57/1968 de 27 de julio, reguladora de las percepciones de las cantidades anticipadas en la construcción y venta de viviendas,  tiene derecho a pedir al banco, caja de ahorros o compañía de seguros que actuó como avalista en su construcción que le devuelva las cantidades pagadas en calidad de anticipo si no le han entregado su casa, sin que la entidad financiera o aseguradora, que actuó como avalista, pueda aducir que el aval tenía un límite de tiempo o se contrató por una cantidad inferior.

Así lo dispone una sentencia de la Audiencia de Cantabria, que condena a Caja Cantabria a responder solidariamente de la devolución de las cantidades anticpadas como adelanto por un ciudadano a la promotora de unas viviendas en la localidad de Arce. En este caso, el comprador demandó a la constructora, Promociones Gumor 3 SL, y a Caja Cantabria para que le reembolsaran las cantidades anticipadas a cuenta por incumplir los plazos fijados en el contrato de compraventa, pero el Juzgado de Primera Instancia número 5 de Santander entendió que la entidad financiera no debía responder por ellas, porque el plazo del aval había expirado.

Sin embargo, la sección cuarta de la Audiencia provincial, corrige al juez de primera instancia y determina que, de acuerdo con la ley, el aval que obligatoriamente debe tener un constructor para poder solicitar anticipos a cuenta a los compradores no expira hasta que se entreguen las viviendas, diga lo que diga el contrato con la caja o el banco avalista. "El plazo de vigencia del aval", razona el tribunal, "no puede invocarse frente al comprador al infringir manifiestamente lo establecido por la ley".

El tribunal tampoco acepta que, llegado el caso, como ocurrió en este litigio, la entidad financiara avalista alegue que su aval era por una cantidad inferior a lo adelantado por el comprador. La Audiencia subraya que "la ley exige" a la entidad avalista que "garantice la devolución de todas las cantidades anticipadas a cuenta a través de una cuenta especial, de cuyo uso la entidad financiera debe estar vigilante" para que todos los anticipos del comprador se ingresen en ella y para que ese dinero no tenga otro uso que el de construir la vivienda, "sin desviación alguna". "Cuando el aval no garantiza, como es el caso, todas las cantidades entregadas a cuenta, dicho negocio es contrario a la ley", sentencia el tribunal, que entiende que la caja avalista debería conocer el negocio de la promotora y exigirle que le informe de las cantidades anticipadas por cada comprador.

Si a usted le ha pasado algo similar, no deje de reclamar las cantidades que ha entregado.

Brilliant! Thanks very much Keith.

I hope my solicitor acts on this information. I'll keep you all informed.

Paul