spanish lawyers

 we have appointed Maria from  Costaluz lawyers to try and get back the deposit what we paid for an appartment in spain 

we are now deciding whether to continue with our case or whether it,s going to be too costly could  anyone tell us if they have won there case and had money paid back into there account  any advise would be appreciated .

Thank you in anticipation

if you want an opinion I would suggest you provide some background as no 2 cases are identical

Dear Mark and Janet,

It will depend on Maria's opinion. Surely she has pointed you in the right direction, as no reputable lawyer will like to fight a case that is lost from the beggining.

There is a risk in every case, but if you don't fight for what is yourse, who will do it?

Good luck and good Justice.

There is a stark difference between winning a case and implementing that judgement within the existing Spanish justice system. At present the administration of justice is an absolute disgrace given the manipulative delays that are compromising all too many clients who are awaiting recompense as per their successful judgements.

The are no time constraints in place to ensure that the consumer is protected under these circumstances and the more that recognise this and actively complain to the CGPJ and add their voices to petitions the better. As things stand right now, there is no consumer protection in place so long as the government and/or the justice departments continue to turn a blind eye to these abusive delays and fail to implement judgements within reasonable timeframes.

Please see the thread titled Justice Issues for more details.

We need good lawyers to come "on-board" with their evidence and start to pro-actively demand that time constraints are put in place to protect their clients. Until this is done, then there are no guarantees that clients will receive their rightful recompense. This is now the main problem assocaiated with ANY form of real estate litigation in Spain so I would ask the question , why are good lawyers not organising themselves as a professional body to protect their clients, when everyone knows that these abusive delays are significantly compromising their financial position.

This message was last edited by ads on 21/03/2011.

This message was last edited by ads on 21/03/2011.

Why are lawyers not speaking out and demonstrating about this lack of justice for their clients in their country?

How bad does this have to get before they will demand time constraints to be in place to ensure consumer protection AS PER EXISTING LAWS?

So long as lawyers just talk about the situation relating to these abusive delays without taking any affirmative action or positive support in the form of EVIDENCE of the impact of these major delays to support us, then I'm sorry to say that their profession will be brought into question. They should not rely solely on us as consumers to bring this to the attention of the government or EU. YOU SHOULD ALL BE DOING THIS YOURSELVES.

The route of reporting to the CGPJ does not appear to be making any difference to the situation.

So I have a suggestion.

WHY DON'T YOU REPORT THIS EN MASSE TO YOUR SPANISH MEP'S AND REQUEST THAT THEY BRING THIS TO THE ATTENTION OF THE EU. THE MEP'S THAT ARE CO-SPONSORING MARTA ANDREASEN'S DECLARATION.

AND/OR WHY DON'T YOU SET UP YOUR OWN PETITION TO PRESENT TO YOUR GOVERNMENT?

Perhaps you don't think that your clients are worthy of this level of protection from abuse and that your priorities lie elsewhere? As things stand, justice is no longer being implemented in Spain and all clients should be made aware of this BEFORE THEY COMMIT TO A COSTLY ROUTE THAT APPEARS TO LEAD TO NOWHERE.

I'm so sorry to have to rant like this, but it is time now that all you lawyers started to put the rhetoric into action.

Case wins count for nothing without implementation.

 Thanks for your comment Abolex. Yes, everytime we take a case, we look careful to the winning possibilities under the legal point of view and also to the solvency position of deffendan/ts.

Ads, with all my respect and appreciation towards you and your situation:  we are already speaking out with our cases, appeals, articles, blogs, communciations to Law Society, Bank of Spain, General Council of Judicial Power....I also think that the Bank Guarantees petition is a good voice on this too. I can understand your frustration but, believe me, it is a matter of time . The recession  ( and its previous crazy boom) have made a great impact on this all. Sign of the times.

Recent changes made and  to be made on the Civil Procedure Act, the electronic justice office...  are good signs of improving too.It also depends on good lawyers applying for Justice under the right legal arguments.

Also Ads, there are some specific Courts ( I know you are suffering out of one of these) who are shockingly slow!

Maria

For many the evaluation of solvency that you refer to has been compromised by these delays, and that is the exact point that I am making. Evaluations have changed dramatically during these last few years. Years when justice should have prevailed. Years when winning possibilities have without doubt been compromised by a justice system that failed them. What do you say to those clients then?

When you say it is a matter of time. How can you make the courts/government ultimately accountable for this injustice? Those for whom there is no means of getting their case wins implemented before the guilty party absconds or sets up under another guise? Those who have also been compromised by legal professionals who negligently failed to protect thieir rights? Who is to say that they too will not abscond and set up under another guise?

Is there some existing legal mechanism to protect clients from this scenario in the interim? If so can you identify it please. How can time possibly be a solution when it is the manipulation of time that is causing this problem in the first place?

Maria

a while ago you said you would consider starting a website for other good  lawyers to join you in comdemnation of the hopeless Spanish justice system. Any news on this?  

The court you mention that is 'shockingly slow', .......is it really a court of justice if delays prevent victims getting their money back even when they won their case, as in my situation and many others?.  You might as well call it a court of lies and deception, if that's what we have to rely on for 'justice'!   At the very least those cheated through delay should be compensated by the courts who have cheated them. Anything else is just fraud by the courts and is the current reality in many of our cases.

Why should the victims have to wait forever?. All good lawyers in Spain know how wrong the system is that they make a very good living from, yet you all continue to work within a system that betrays trust of vulnerable people through non implementation of law or lack of regulation and then again through court delays or simply wrong court decisions.

I know that you and other good lawyers in Spain are doing your best within the system, but that system is so badly flawed that without all lawyers as a body refusing to go along with the lies and deceptions of the courts, you are all to some degree part of the betrayal. We have to put our trust in you, but if your hands are tied, then the whole idea of real justice for many of us is just a lie.

Goodstich is right. The issue of non implementation of law and the lack of regulation in this regard should be the main priority.

We need all good lawyers to stand up for the actual application of consumer rights. Not concede to a system that denies justice.

I wonder, are you and your professional colleagues willing to do this? To make a strong stand on this issue?

Yes, the IT person of the team is in charge of this, but I have not since then given to this too much attention.

why? I wonder...

Maybe because I do not believe this will be of any effect and that the Bank Guarantee petition is already covering this....

I need more... passion. To see that this is really necessary and will be effective. I am open to receive mor elements for the passion to increase...

M

Below, taken from another thread today from Suzie.......

''Returning to the suspicions raised at the beginning of this thread, that the Spanish government may be deliberately halting legitimate claims, a recent article in the New York Times deserves a mention here.  It seems lawyers in Madrid certainly have a strong voice of protest when it comes to their own payments being blocked by the regional government:

'Thousands of lawyers in Madrid are threatening to go on strike this month over late payments for legal aid...Last month, in an 11th-hour attempt to prevent a strike, the government unblocked €33.9 million to pay the lawyers what they were still owed for work last year. Yet the lawyers held a protest in central Madrid on Feb. 28, maintaining their strike plan for March 15........

"We cannot accept that lawyers get paid a year late when they are fulfilling such a fundamental activity," said Teodoro Mota, president of the Asociación Libre de Abogados, a lawyers’ association......'

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/08/world/europe/08iht-spain08.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

 .........So lawyers are happy to protest against  the government as a large group when they feel it is in their own personal interest!!.  It would be nice to see that same attitude extended to area's where those they represent are cheated by the government.

.......so lawyers are happy to protest as a large group against a cheating government when it's in their own personal interest.

 In answer to the original post, we took Maria's advice and also appointed her as our Lawyer, it took about 2 years but eventually Maria won our case and the full amount of the deposit we paid was refunded and paid into our bank account last June.

Definitely worth paying the money to take our case to court, but I can say that because we won, still waiting for the repayment of legal interest and costs but hopeful that that will be repaid soon.

Kelju

kelju

that's great to hear. Well done Maria and you for seeing it through. 

Your case is typical of everything that we are saying though. However good your lawyer is, two years and more in many cases is just hopeless if those who cheated you go bust, or salt any money/assets away to avoid paying their debts while the courts take far to long to pass sentence.

You were lucky, you won the Spanish justice lottery, many of us are still waiting for the government to compensate us for their delays/failings, and in the meantime the good lawyers could certainly help by getting together and protesting about how wrong the system is that's cheated so many of us.  They won't though until it effects them personally, and while they can still make money and win cases (even though the win often means nothing in reality) then they feel they have done their job, and it's tough luck for the victim of the failed justice system.

Maria,

Can you explain what you mean by this please

"I need more... passion. To see that this is really necessary and will be effective. I am open to receive mor elements for the passion to increase... "

I'm hoping that I haven't misunderstood this..... as this comes across as though you don't think our concerns are grave enough to warrant support from the legal profession.

As things stand as far as I am aware, Keith's petition does not include any input from the legal profession. Those statistics are not covered in his petition. Lawyers are at the front end of this process.....you know how many clients are awaiting resolution to your outstanding cases. You know how many have been waiting beyond a reasonable timeframe and are being compromised in the process. So why the reticence to provide this information in statistical form to the powers that be? What can you possibly lose by identifying these disgraceful statistics that do your profession great harm so long as justice is not seen to prevail?

Where is the passion for lawyers to ensure that an adequate legal system is in place in Spain? One that provides consumer protection according to existing laws? Where is the passion for lawyers to ensure that not only their own position is protected by recovery of fees from resolutions of judgements but also those monies owed to clients by the guilty parties?

Where is the passion for lawyers to ensure that an independent system of justice is in place in their country? A system to be proud of, not embarassed by?

Where is the passion to make courts accountable for their onerous delays?

Where is the passion by your colleagues to match your commitment to consumer protection?

You suggested " Maybe because I do not believe this will be of any effect "

Does this mean that you have no faith in your colleagues to back you up on this? Or does this mean that you have little faith in the legal profession having any influence to act upon your findings?

I will ask some straight forward questions of legal professionals.

What % of clients are awaiting recompense as per their legal judgements and are you content to accept these statistics?

Are you content to stand by and watch the demise of justice for your clients?

Sorry, but in case you hadn't noticed, I feel quite passionate about this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 One more question-

Is there any legal accountability on the courts to act in a responsible and independent manner (in other words does a client have any legal recourse if the court acts in any protectionist manner, purposefully retaining monies for either its own gain or that of the guilty party)?

 p.s. Having just re-read this I want to stress that this is not meant in any way as a slant on your efforts Maria, but just frustration at the apparent lack of "passion" shown by Spanish  legal professionals to do something constructive about these awful and abusive delays that each and every day that passes, compromise more and more innocent clients.

This message was last edited by ads on 23/03/2011.

This message was last edited by ads on 23/03/2011.

This message was last edited by ads on 23/03/2011.

 Maria,

Yet another statistic, see Palmera Properties thread.

Please can you not do something about these delays with your legal professionals?

I would really appreciate a response on this.

Any thoughts on the following, all?

Perhaps we should be looking at this from a different perspective on this forum and ask for evidence of actual recompense, and not case wins, as a means of identifying which law firms are worthy of recognition when following through with future Bank claims and the like.

That way there is an incentive for law firms to prove their total commitment to their clients. If they are not able to do so due to political interference, and this starts to impact on their business, then it would certainly be in their own longer term interests to vociferously ensure that these abusive delays were resolved from within.

As things stand at present Law firms appear to have little incentive to address these issues, so long as clients continue to seek their legal  assistance, so perhaps we should be advising everyone considering a future Bank claim route (or any legal route for that matter), to ask Law firms to be more transparent and demonstrate how many of their clients have actually received recompense from their case wins, before employing their services.

In other words the benchmark of approval should be the end result, not a part-way solution.

How would you feel about this Maria? Would you feel compromised by this or would you be content to honour this improved transparency?

I for one would be the first to sing the praises of any law firm that met this final criteria....

ads

that method really should show which lawyers we should be able to trust to get a result worthy of litigation.  Without money actually being returned to the victims bank account, then I feel the lawyer and the court have only done half a job, but there lies the problem.  Until lawyers and the courts take full responsability for the end outcome, then many of us victims will just spend years more time and money trying to finish the job they started, or just walk away with everything lost. Not much of an option is it?.

No doubt Lawyers would say that they can only work within what the system allows, but we know full well that the system fails so many it just doesn't work far to often, .......but will the lawyers join forces and do anything about it???????

 Ann: Completely happy with your initiative. No political interest in our work at all!

Goodstich: As lawyers we are very frequently against the "system"

Hi Maria,

I'm pleased that you do not feel compromised by that, and trust that you will update your list of cases as posted on EOS (http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/costaluz/5167/blog_post.aspx?blog=costaluz&post=5167) with the relevant information to demonstrate if clients have achieved actual recompense. I'm sure that clients will be grateful for this level of transparency.

But please can you answer, where is the consumer protection for those who have won their legal cases for breach of contract (or any other legal case for that matter), but are being denied recompense as per those judgements due abusive delays that prohibits the application of justice, due to lack of adherence or non existence of reasonable timescale constraints upon the process of Spanish law?

For your information the following was identified within the AUAN statement

[12] Treaty on the Functioning of the EU, article 169 (page 124) states that “….to ensure a high level of consumer protection, the Union shall contribute to protecting the health, safety and economic interests of consumers …”

[19] Article 17 (page 395) of the Charter states that “No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss.”.

[20] Also right to equality (article 20, page 395); non-discrimination (article 21, page 396); consumer protection (article 38, page 399), right to justice (art 47, page 401).

so are you able to answer the following questions:

• Is the Spanish legal system in line with all European standards?
• Do you consider those fighting within the Spanish legal system have been compensated “in good time for their loss”?
• If Spanish lawyers are "frequently against the "system"  what are you doing right now as a professional body to ensure that decent and reasonable timescale constraints within the judicial system exist and are adhered to, which after all, as we all know to our cost, is an absolute basic requirement for true consumer protection?

This message was last edited by ads on 18/04/2011.

This message was last edited by ads on 18/04/2011.