The EU - PROTECTING THE RIGHT TO PROPERTY - SEMINAR

AS for you Poppy dear.

Dwell on this saying:

"The dogs bark, theh caravan passes".

Bark as much as you like;

Patricia

Jek

Thankyou for putting campana straight she has been following me around on here for a few days now. Obviously she's looking for some response from me which she hasn't got, because I find her posts confrontational, snotty nosed and boring.

Thanks also for your support of the purchasers (like me) whose situation   you so accuratley describe. You cannot imagine the value this site, and the people on it,  has been throughout the past six years of being involved  entangled in the Spanish property purchasing system.  It has, at times, helped save my sanity.

p.s. Poppyseed I hope you are not too paranoid about my not only copying your applause but making it an ovation

"Isn't it amazing how nasty these threads can turn"

Yes and it only takes one! 

Are you referring perhaps to yourself, Sandra.  Nothing to beat riding in to town on the tail of the posse.

Patricia

You are absolutely correct Sandra, it's all of those things that prompted me to put fingers to keyboard. Anyway can't spend any more time on here I may become paranoid and forget I have a life and other fun stuff to do (unlike some people it would seem!)

Have a pleasant day, dearest Poppy. 

It is precisely this sort of bitchiness which is surely doing no favours to the group represented by Keith and Ruth, and which must surely alienate people in 3D as well as on this forum.

Patricia

Bumping this up again, Keith.  On topic.

The role of the EU in protecting the right to property

Event date: Tuesday 14 June 2011 09:00 to 12:00
Location: BRUSSELS EP PHS 7 C 50

The European Parliament has encountered a growing number of problems from European citizens who have purchased property across member state borders.

The failure to protect property rights across the European Union has consequences for the internal market, legal affairs and the fundamental right to property.

Using the experiences of academics, practitioners and citizens affected by flaws in the protection of property rights, the seminar will address the current state of affairs, and look at some practical steps, which might form the basis for future European solutions.

MEPs in this event

Ramon TREMOSA i BALCELLS
Convergència Democràtica de Catalunya

Diana WALLIS
Liberal Democrats Party

Patricia,

Nothing in my post was a personal attack on you. I was, however, attacking your argument.  I think that that is a good rule for you, me and others to follow - attack the argument; not the person..

I made no personal attack on anyone, Jek.  When I opened up on this forum today I see a post from this Poppy person telling me to do her and everyone a favour by leaving the forum!

So what did you expect me to reply to that?  What an unpleasant thing to say, and it certainly says more about him/her than it does about me.

I do not make personal attacks on anyone, but I feel I am entitled to reply to a personal attack.

On to other matters:

I can only give benefit of my experiences; I am not a lawyer (I believe the only lawyer on here is Maria), and would never give legal advice. 

Patricia

Following you around, Sandra!  My dear you can be sure no one will follow you around, with that unlovely way you have with you.  Who do you think you are?  I have zero interest in you.  I truly feel for the real campaigners on this forum such as Keith, and Ruth, if they have to depend on the likes of you for support.

Mind how you go and do watch out for those "followers".

Patricia

Just for clarity.....it was  the conservative MEPs that said people investing money into a house in Spain should be able to afford to lose their money as it is such a huge gamble. I think this type of rhetoric is unprofessional, unhelpful and a little ignorant. They should do more homework before making such sweeping statements. To say that the vast majority of estate agents in Andalucia see their clients as walking credit cards is also a massive generalisation based on someones  limited knowledge and experience in this field. As for commissions earned the normal rates of commissions are 5%. Sometimes a little lower and sometimes a little higher ( for volume sales). Regarding the nota simpla. It is a very useful starting point in any investigation. It does not simply say that there is an escritura and that the transfer taxes were paid. Far from it. Licence or no licence from the town hall if it does not comply with regional guidelines for that area they WILL NOT inscribe it into the land registry, unless there are very clear reasons for it to be accepted ( time elapsed, tourism schemes etc). I am sorry that you have such low expectations of highly paid public servants like our MEPs and that you expect all agents to mislead but criminally negligent rubbish....please. If you look at normativas for a zone that says 1 dwelling per 1000m2 plot and there are 4 apartments on that plot and you get offered an apartment for 100,000 euros do you buy it ? NO. Why ? Because it is not right. Maybe they have exceptions. Maybe they have a special dispensation. Let someone else take that risk. That is all I am saying by stating that if you follow the procedure then you are less likely to get into trouble. I dont think that having a rant about Spain , estate agents, english estate agents , calling people criminally negligent etc does the cause of helping these people any good. The Spanish banks should take some responsibility for the misleading guarantees. From the few that I have seen they appear to be deliberately ambiguous and misleading. They imply a guarantee but have so many loop holes it is difficult  ( often impossible) for them to justify their integrity, let alone duty of care. This is where I suspect people will get the most success in obtaining some compensation.
On a final note I hope that these unfortunate people do get some redress, especially in situations where they have been deliberately mislead or conned. There are better legal systems in  the world and there are far worse but critism should be constructive and accurate if we want to achieve results.

You are indeed entitled to your opinion, Julie.  This is a public forum.  I hold no brief for you or anyone else, but you are entitled to speak.

Patricia

Jek said:

"My sympathies lie with ads and Keith and the rest - apart from when they whinge about "I'm all right Jack Brits" which does them no favours, alienates people they should be seeking as friends and fails to understand real life - and wish them luck in getting a result.  But I don't see it happening any time soon.  But anyone who seeks to defend the Spanish in this isn't for real."

Jek:

I could never defend or condone corrupt practices, whether in Spain or anywhere else.  Nor could I defend Spanish, or any other citizens, who are perpetrators of corrupt practices and injustices.  I do hope I am making that very clear.  I also with Keith and his group success, but, like you, I don't see it happening any time soon either.  Help can come from all annd any  quarters, and you yourself have offered help here, but there is this tendency to "kill the messenger". 

Certainly after today's little exchange I would be very reluctant myself to offer help of any kind. 

Patricia

Hi Jek

I have not attacked anybody.

I have only intended to reply to the comments which were quoted from an open letter by certain conservative MEPs that claimed that you should only buy in Spain if you can afford to lose your money and that buying property in Spain was akin to buying a lottery ticket. I felt this type of open letter was totally exagerated and inflamatory.

I was trying to point out that the vast majority of people buying property in Spain do so without any significant problems. That not all estate agents ( English or otherwise ) are crooks. This type of rhetoric only goes to weaken the argument for people who have been ripped off by high pressure sales companies, failed by complicit lawyers who turned a blind eye and banks with their (at best) "insufficient guarantees". To people who have suffered at the hands of  conmen I am truly sorry and wish them all the best in their fight for action and compensation. The actions of these companies is dramatically different to my experience here in Spain and in the UK. My advice was intended for those people reading these forums who may be thinking about buying property in Spain. So people can be educated as to which questions to ask and as to which information is important. If my comments have been misinterpreted then for all those who may have been offended please accept my apologies.

From personal experience I can assure you the justice system is a lottery and finding a lawyer you can trust is not something to be taken for granted as most do in the UK.  You might get your case heard in months or years. Obviously a long delay makes a court win useless when the company goes bust after months or years of waiting for your case to be heard.  Judges even admit they can't cope with a backlog of cases, and apart from the well reported corruption, that's often due to non implementation of law and lack of regulation.  Despite that, the judges/Spanish government offer no compensation for the fact they have themselves cheated the victim they award the court win too, through their own incompetence, so for many of us, are they much better than the crooks we win our cases against?

For the record I would like to add that I have no gripe against anyone who has had a good experience buying in Spain. On the contrary, I wish them all the best and it's good to hear their stories as it's what all of us so badly cheated set out for in the first place and would love to be in a similar position one day. All we ask is acceptance of the truth, of the facts in the petitions and an understanding of what we have been through, and why we fight so hard to change the system that has robbed many of their life's savings and in some cases even their property.  We are not 'anti-Spain'  or  'anti happy ex-pat' ,  just 'anti the system that has cheated us so badly'.

A big thanks to all who are supporting those wronged whatever your personal situation.

So long as the Justice system in Spain continues to deny timely and fair implementation of law for citizens (no matter what nationality or circumstance), and the Government refuses to ensure that existing consumer protection is adequately enforced (to address the ONGOING injustices not only from the BG issues and unaccountability of the Banks, but also resulting from the disagreements between regional and local governments, with all the relevant implications from this),  then everyone should be under no illusion of the continuing risks.

It's in everyones interest to ensure that  Spain has a system of Justice that protects consumers and implements the laws of the land in an effective and fair manner. All too many have been, and will continue to be compromised, so long as this is not addressed.

Hi Ads

You are right about the slow legal system. It is a political hot potato that nobody wants to tackle. They are beginning to address some of the backlog and Andalucia Region are in the process of an amnesty on illegally built properties ( from minor planning infringements to outright illegal) in order to draw a line in the sand. This would free up the system for new cases to be dealt with quickly and restore some confidence to overseas buyers. This amnesty allegedly will affect 10,000 properties in the Malaga province alone. I do not know figures for Granada or the other Andalucia provinces, but they will not be as high as Malaga which was the worse offender.  I suspect that this will get more profile as more Spaniards are also affected with properties in negative equity and mortgages they cannot afford. One MP has already stood up and suggested that the government should pay off all negative equity to help those who are struggling! As it comes up the political agenda then so will the desire to deal with the problem , especially if there are votes to be had.

In the meantime good luck to those that are fighting the banks and to those that want to buy property in Spain, do your homework. There is plenty of good advice and good tips on the forums from people who have had the experience...both bad and good.

I've just received the following email from Diana Wallis in reply to the one I sent to her regarding today's Seminar:-

Thank you very much for your email.

I understand from your email that you heard about our seminar on
property rights. The seminar was successful and had some positive
recommendations for the future.

This article in the Telegraph covers one of these recommendations,
though there were others too.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/expatproperty/8575644/EU-pilot-scheme-guarantees-legal-certainty-when-buying-property-cross-border.html



We are familiar with a large number of European citizens who have been
victims of property fraud and developers not delivering on projects. The
article above does not offer help specifically to those who have been
caught in such problems in the past, though it offers the hope that
greater legal certainty can be established for purchases in the future.
Please let us know if you'd like to be kept up to date with any
follow-up to the seminar.

Diana is aware of the huge number of victims of Spanish property
problems, which have robbed many of their life savings. A change of
government in 2012 is unlikely to rectify this and we would like to
offer our support to past victims seeking a solution.

One action which Diana supported in the past was an amendment to the EU
budget, making Regional Development funds in Spain, dependant on the
Spanish authorities recognising the fundamental rights of Spanish
residents. Last time we tabled such an amendment it was voted down in
plenary. This may be a move we campaign for again.

Please keep in touch and feel free to contact us on any other issue.

Kind regards


Office of Diana Wallis MEP
Liberal Democrat Member
Yorkshire and the Humber

Vice President of the European Parliament

tel:  +32-2-284.7201
fax: +32-2-284.9201
email: diana.wallis@europarl.europa.eu
follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dianawallismep

I expect those who wrote to her received a similar reply. The news is encouraging for future purchasers but leaves those swindled during the past eight years or so with little hope for a quick solution.