Take your Solicitor (Abogado) to court.

 Commissions for sales from the agent/developer to Lawyer are forbidden. It is against some essential principles: avod conflict of interests and independence

 Legal tip 580. More discipline for lawyers 
02 September 2011 @ 19:39 

Really - that's most interesting - I would never have known that

and what about commissions from mortgage referrals - that's normally 50% of opening commission.

and also many lawyers pay estate agents EUR500 for an introduction.

From a simple search in google - I'd say a pretty good start at finding an english speaking lawyer in Spain for those who have never had need for a lawyer before and have no contacts at all in the country to ask!

 Faro:

Any commission or any economic incentive which will affect full independence and having just your clients´interests at heart is forbidden by the rules of our profession. The problem is how this is made effective as discipline by Bar associations are these days very light

The point I was making was not the difficulty of finding a lawyer,  but how to find 'a good lawyer', the emphasis on good for those that missed this point. And for interest the Embassy website also states this,

"The British Consular Network provides lists of lawyers for the convenience of enquirers, but neither HMCG nor any official of the Consulates take any responsibility for the competence or probity of any firm/lawyer on these lists or for the consequence of any legal action initiated or advice given"

Maria - you know as well as I do what goes on in Spain and the code of professional conduct of solicitors has absolutely no meaning if it is not enforced. If a paid up member of a colegio is not even entertained when bringing a complaint what chance have English people? The colegios will not answer telephones or emails and it is necessary to keep going in person to push for the complaint to be heard and only by constant harrassment will the complaint ever be heard and then the response will be weak and lack any disciplinary action or fine let alone the revoking of a practising certicate. It's easy to come on this forum and call for change but if you want that change to happen then you must do it within the profession. I speak only for the colegio de abogados de Malaga and not the other 100+ colegios and therein lies part of the problem. Why don't you take the matter up with your colegio?

The information I received on how to take your solicitor to court was received from a few different sources. One was from the school of Solicitors in Orihuela (Bar Association) when I was translating for a friend who thought a solicitor had abusively charged her 375€ to put her on the pardon!. Unfortunately we were informed that although there is a guideline as to what a solicitor can charge but they can charge  what ever they like. The lady who attended us was disgusted  that my friend had been ripped off in such a simple procedure.  At that time we enquired about the situation of taking things further with another solicitor who had dealt with the purchase of her property. It  was at that point we were given the information on what to do. The lady attending us was very informative and willing to help.

I also received information from the Organisation of Consumers and Users of whom I am a member. They have published a article in which it states that 60% of solicitors being brought to account are over these type of civil cases 26% are work related case and 14% fiscal related cases. I understand from this article that there must be action being taken against solicitors who are acting badly as they were also publishing examples of cases where the solicitors had to pay compensation of between 58,000€ and 7000€ plus costs according to each case.

I believe if there is a official procedure that can be taken then we should be informed (perhaps Maria can help informing us as) and do every thing we can to bring change by taking action. I know that proof is a big factor in these cases.

I think if a Solicitor has fraudulently stolen money then the case should be reported to the courts. The Judge will decide if it this a criminal case or civil. Once the decision is made then you can take action accordingly with legal aid or a private solicitor.

I do know some solicitors that seem to be o.k. I think that many would be willing to change the stigma that has been created about there profession by bringing to account those who have acted foolishly to the detriment of many.

I am amazed that it is against the law for a solicitor to represent both parties. I have been told on various occasions by solicitors that this is o.k. I would like to know which law it is so that I can quote it to any solicitor who mentions this practice to me in the future.

Spot on as usual Poppyseed,

The point is that what Maria conservatively says............

"The problem is how this is made effective as discipline by Bar associations are these days very light"

Faro says is actually non-existent and I believe never will be until some enormous change in the truly absurd way lawyers are employed and paid.

Who else has got the market so completely rigged as to get paid win or lose?????????

Let all lawyers be paid no win no fee and the courts would empty overnight and the silly decisions and reversals would end.

The happy lucrative parties of black gowned and often be-wigged human scavengers outside courts would evaporate and the most restrictive practice in the world would end.

We need a revolution to bring precision and certainty to the law with the ordinary citizen in the ascendancy.

If the human rights act did not include the right to fair and honest treatment of said citizen then the drafters were grossly negligent and if it does, why are lawyers not ensuring it is enforced.

Regards

Norman

Patrick

Would you please publish a link to the articles to which you refer and also any decisions.

The starting point of any complaint against a solicitor should be the colegio and all complaints should be investigated fully by a disciplinary committee, the outcome/decision where the complaint was valid should be published in the same way as these matters are investigated/published in the UK.

see the attached link http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/in-practice/sdt - do you ever think we would see desciplinary matters reported like that in Spain?

Because there are 100+ law societies in Spain we would need a central governing body/committee whose decision in any matter would be final and the local colegio/law society would have to act accordingly. Member would be named, shamed, fine, practising certificates suspended or revoked etc

This would be a good starting point in legal reform.

In UK my I believe almost all solicitors will do an adequate job in say conveyancing matters and if you opt for a cheap inline conveyancing firm then you will still be ok. But at the same time we see the law society in the UK developing their kitemark. " Conveyancing quality scheme" and members entitled to use this kitemark will have been audited by the law society. This is an example of excellence being driven by the law society and members of the public knowing that if they select a firm having earned this kitemark then they can expect a certain standard or level of service. By way of comparison a Spanish colegio does not say how a conveyancing matter should be handled or what that level of care should be .....

The attached link will give you some idea of a law society taking a lead in these matters:-

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/productsandservices/accreditation/conveyancingqualityscheme.page

In Spain it would be for the Government to say to the colegios that as they have failed in self regulation that regulation will now be taken over by a central committee based in Madrid.

But I know this type of change will never take place and I do not believe in my professional lifetime we will see reform in Spain. People like me calling for reform will be told to pack up and go home and to stop telling the Spanish how they should run their business or law societies. Spanish lawyers must make that call to their colegios and call for change but will they?

Juat to return to the discussion about using same lawyer in property sale/purchase.

We are hoping to purchase our first (Spanish) property soon. But have taken independent advice, even though the vendors lawyer offered to act for us too. (Apparently this is 'very normal' in Spain. But I agree, it is a bit dodgy/open to corruption.)

We have decided to go to a friends lawyer (they have 'tried and tested' them), and we hope all will go OK from here (apart from the legal hurdles that we know are ahead as the property has never been registered as change of owner etc, etc.)

With regard to 'Good lawyers' and recommendations. It is really hard.  With my Criminal Case (where I was the injured party), I was not happy with the service I was getting from the Insurance Co's own lawyer, so under the policy terms was allowed to select my own.  Sadly, even though he was listed as 'English Speaking Lawyers' on the British Consulates own list... he turned out at the end of the day to 'not understand me' and wanted a interpretuer (for which he wanted me to pay)... etc, etc, etc.

There is no such thing as a guarantee. Only what you can see at the time..

Susan

So true. I think the only safe way (if any?)  is by word of mouth from someone you know you can trust.  Every case is different, and you need to know a certain lawyer will work on your side. What if a recomended lawyer happens to be good at his job but is working with conflict of interest?, how does the punter know?  In a country where integrity cannot be taken for granted with those in positions of legal trust then you have to really know who you are dealing with, and how many can truthfully say that?.  Many will of course be sitting smug because they feel they  found a good agent/lawyer/judge/planning office etc through their own homework, but I wonder how many of them know just how much luck might have played a part?.

as of yet Im not able to post links, I willsend it to you on p.m. and see if you can post it.

I agree Goodstich, there is much luck involved and I am sure many people who have had good experiences did exactly the same as those who had bad but they were lucky. You can sometimes only tell the good from the bad when things go wrong.

I think Faro is spot on. 

The complaint procedures are ineffective as things stand and I feel strongly that lawyers should be far more pro-active in the reform of their own profession. Why are they so reticent? Is it because they are fearful of repercussions?

To protect or cover up wrong doings will only accentuate the problems for Spain. Trust is already at an all time low and it does the "good" professionals no favours when they are seen to be sitting on the sidelines and not calling for greater accountability within their own profession.

Hello to everyone:

To those who ask if I would produce a list of good lawyers, my answer is: "Do you think I am absolutely crazy"?  LOL.

I am no masochist and I have no intention of inviting a lambasting.  Sure as shot, were I to give you the names of some firms, and were something not be to satisfaction, I can only just imagine the sort of uproar there would be.  In any event I do not give recommendations of that kind on a public forum, and indeed I am quite cagey about doing so even in private to people who ask me.  I can only say that any friends who were doing business in Spain (purchasing or any other business) to whom I gave a lawyer or other recommendation were all very satisfied.

Might I also add that I made sure that those self-same friends followed my advice (advice, I might add, that was called "patronising", if I remember correctly, on an earlier thread here), to please please take notes at their meeting with the lawyer, planning expert or whoever, and to then read those notes, and then go back AGAIN and ask more questions.  I insisted on that (LOL) as part of the recommendation.  It  is plain common-sense, because it is difficult at best of times to memorise everything from a conversation.

I've been away on a week's holiday (much deserved!), so I had better get on with the bread-and-butter stuff now.

Best to all

Patricia

campana

said'- ''To those who ask if I would produce a list of good lawyers, my answer is: "Do you think I am absolutely crazy"?  LOL.''

If you are confident in those lawyers you say are good and you want to help people, then why keep it a secret?.  Patrick has said the one he used he has had no problems with and he is clearly confident about their ability. Nobody is holding a gun to his head!

 On one hand you say 'find out for yourself'' and then admit you wouldn't tell anyone about lawyers you trust, apart from friends anyway?.  How is that helpful to those doing their homework?

I am returning to Spain in 2 weeks & Campana has provided me with HIGHLY RELEVANT suggestions/advice.

I concur that producing a "super league table" of lawyers on a Public Forum would be moronic !

Cheers,

JON

JON

It could be said that withholding information that could be helpful is moronic and downright selfish for that matter.  What's the big secret then?.  Do we not want to improve the lot for those buying as much as possible by making good personal experience available to all?   How many have come unstuck because of difficulty in finding the good guys?.

Even if we can't name and shame the bad lawyers, we can at least highlight the good one's, unless of course we have a motive for not doing so?.