At what point does an Agents Obligation stop in the process of sale - Your Views

Interesting little exchange there between Laury & Gillespie!

I basically agree with all that Gillespie says. I think what is highlighted here, is that many Brits (or other foreigners) tend to rely/depend on assistance from the estate agent that they would not normally expect from an agent in their own country. I recently sold a property in the UK, and once the agent had found a suitable buyer and I had accepted the offer, I never had any further dealings with the agent. Even payment of his commission was handled by my solicitor. But then, he also only charge me a paltry figure!

The other side of the coin is that many agents (some Spanish included) who deal largely with foreigners try to justify their fees by offering (or pretending to offer) more than what would - or should, normally be expected of them, the result being that buyers then expect more and more, and agents get fed up running around and sometimes even become a little cynical! Others (like certain big companies we all know and love) simply sell an add-on package and charge accordingly.

I think Gillespie makes much the same point as I did earlier, namely that estate agents should really stick to what they are good at (?!) and simply act as a middle man to put a buyer and seller in touch with each other, and charge a sensible fee for doing so. Then step back and let the lawyer's deal with the nitty-gritty of the deal. Of course, following up with the client (both buyer & seller) after the deal to ensure everyone is happy is not only courteous, but good business sense, since either may well become clients again in the future, or make a recommendation to others.

As for the services Gillespie describes - often British women, working from home, offering help on a whole host of things - that sounds like JeanSis to me, although she does it for free! (or used to )  With respect, I wouldn't confuse these people with a Gestor, who should be a qualified professional. One big advantage of using a Gestor, is their ability to bypass the queues in many bureaucratic situations. Having said that, I see no harm in utilising this other type of service until, as Gillespie says, you are able to manage things yourself. Of course, nobody wants to spend their valuable holiday time traipsing around government offices and the like, but with the help of forums like this, and a bit of determination and patience, you'll be amazed how much you can actually do yourself, and it's so much more satisfying than paying someone else to do it!

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

I think you hit the nail on the head Roberto.  Because we appear to pay a lot more to Spanish agents. We expect a lot more. Although I understand that's not always the case.

So the Gestor is what I thought it was then? I see.  Perhaps we will need one once we move out, to aid with our taxes etc., as we may need to be self employed eventually. Perhaps someone on here will recommend someone in the Dolores area?

We did virtually everything ourselves as we didn't know the solicitor was meant to do more than check the deeds and do a compra venta. He was based in Alicante and we never met him. He was apalling when it came to replying to phone calls and such and although I was given his name as a recommendation, I wouldn't touch him with a barge pole now.

The agent did, however pick up our NIE for us because we got the timing wrong and were back in the UK at the wrong time. He has been very helpful. The lady at the NIE office was the only miserable and unhelpful person we came across. Our halting Spanish was dismissed as she deliberately replied in rapid fire Spanish all the time.  (Also making out that she didn't understand a word)

 

Laury

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

As an ex-agent in the UK you are spot on Roberto, we put clients in tuch with each other and held their hands through the process.

Here although we do not officially offer an aftersales service, I have a wonderful secretary who keeps on top of the sales through to completion and its amazing how the lawyers get figures wrong, gestors have little or no idea of what is needed ie nie certificates for completion at notary and a myriad or other minor problems.

We do not charge massive fees - as you know - and therefore do not offer inspection trips and all that malarchy.

Quite simply we offer property - no more no less - and I dont even have a swanky car to drive people around in - its a sports car so buyers with wigs arent happy getting in with me

Seriously I meet clients closeby and drive to the property with them following - as you would do in the UK and therefore they do not feel any obligation

However, if clients need anything at all after the event we are always happy to oblige and usually freely - even to the point of organizing their housewarming party!

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Laury, For accountancy you will need an Assesoria/Assesor, if it´s the type of chartered accountant you would expect in the UK.  For example my company and personal income tax here in Spain is done by an Assesor along with the company accounts.

Banks and other institutions tend to use Gestorias for tax payments and the like relating to clients mortgages.  Gestorias have evolved a little more over the last few years to deal with individuals relating to property services almost duplicating some of the work done by a lawyer.  However, in my opinion, use a lawyer only.  If you have a mortgage the bank will, amongs many of it´s set up and associated product charges, list the Gestorias costs which you will pay.

I like Roberto very much.  He sees the sense in estate agents only doing what you would expect of a UK agent, and equally agree that this is fine provided they charge lower commissions. 

If you get a plumber in to fix a tap, don´t ask him to fell a tree in the garden, or you will lose your conservatory roof.!!!

The same applies to estate agents.  Mortgages are for Banks and Brokers, Legal contracts and conveyancing should be done by lawyers, and money transfers and deposits should be done through banks and lawyers or developers and not to estate agent clients accounts.

Estate agents really don´t do schools and hospitals very well!!  But others specialise in it.

Roberto - send me some piccs (about 8) and 150 words of text describing your place in CDS and I´ll put it on my website.  No charge for the service but you will have to show the clients around yourself

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

I'm still not really clear. I'm sorry.

What is the point of a Gestoria then if the lawyers and assesors sort everything out?

I just get more and more confused ..

Laury

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

So at what point does an Agents obligation stop in the process of sale?

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

LAM, you started a very interesting discussion with this topic. Unfortunately, you are obviously still not satisfied that your original question has been answered!

I think from all the responses, it's clear that, at least here in Spain, there is no absolute definition of where an estate agent's obligation ends, either legaly or ethically. So I guess it has to be up to the customer, whether buyer or seller, to try to establish exactly what services a particular agent will provide prior to agreeing to proceed with doing busness with them.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

I expected your answer but thought i would bring the topic to the forefront again seeing that the market is changing daily

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Rixxy you say   " We do not charge massive fees "  that may be true compared to the big boys but they are still massive compared to the UK, so what is the buyer getting for the extra fee if not some after sales help.  Personally we have just bought using an small independent agent who is still doing things for us while we are back in the UK which is probably why he gets recommended by word of mouth, I certainly would do so without hesitation he has done everything asked and more.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Tinto

Have to agree with you on that one. I found an absolute treasure. We completed in Jan and he is still helping us now. I haven't paid an "After sales fee" what's that about? He is just there when we need him. Went above and beyond the call and have recommended him to others for buying and also selling. Nothing was, and still is too much trouble for him. BRILLIANT!!!

So Lam, I think that the simple answer to your question is that it depends on the agent, you get good ones and bad ones, if that is of any help to you

 

This message was last edited by Candyfloss on 6/24/2007.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Sound like we got the same one

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Morning All.

The after sale service doesnt stop - it never did in the UK where buyers and sellers would pop in to just pass the time of day or ask where to buy something from

Its even more important here when so many buyers are from foreign shores. Any agent large or small should remember property is merely a recycling process and one needs to be good to clients to keep them. Some are easier to deal with as the other side of the coin is being asked to drive miles all over the place to collect things or open up doors when you have something better to do, like working!

But on the whole very few buyers have taken the micky, several have bought again, others and resold and no-one has complained about the fee!

And its hot today Have a great one everyone

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Re my previous post about Atlas - great article on page 8 of today's Coastrider - also available on line. WE WANT OUR DEEDS AND WE WANT THEM NOW. A bloody nose for Atlas I hope.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

For those of you who cannot access the article mentioned by Fly380 here it is..

We want our deeds, and we want them now
Residents of Macarena II, in the Las Chismosas area of Orihuela Costa, have been waiting as far back as early 2004 to receive the deeds on their properties. After individual efforts to negotiate with several companies in an attempt to get the elusive deeds, the residents are now fighting as a unit, and it is a group that is growing in size by the day.
The urbanisation was built by Tecnologia, and many of the properties were sold by Atlas. The residents I spoke to who have no deeds are those who paid cash in full and who bought through Atlas.
Those who bought through other agencies, or who took out a Spanish mortgage, received their deeds just weeks after handing over the final payment. What is of great concern to those who have not yet received their deeds is that at least one couple have discovered Tecnologia still has a mortgage of 65,000 euros on their property. Others are assuming there are mortgages on their properties too, following a discussion with a senior figure at Tecnologia. Should this be the case, residents face an uncertain future.
The urbanisation president and treasurer are the driving forces behind what is a growing campaign to obtain the deeds. The president, who does have her deeds, told me: “We know at the moment there are about 28 properties affected, and there could be more. Some people handed over their final payments back in November 2003, others came a little later, but this situation has gone on for far too long for everybody. These people have put a lot of money into their homes, and they are now left wondering whether they will ever get their deeds. They assume there must be a major problem, but have had no definitive answers.”
Individually, people have been passed from pillar to post. The solicitor, Aroca, stated at the time of final payment that deeds would be ready within 7 to 9 months. Some residents told me about their final payment process, when they were taken firstly to their bank in an Atlas people carrier to withdraw large amounts of cash, and then directly to Tecnologia. The cash was handed over in the Tecnologia building, and receipts were issued.
The urbanisation president told me: “This process appears to be abnormal – why were these customers taken by Atlas directly to Tecnologia? I bought my house through a different real estate agent, and my final payment was made at the notary. I was not expected to take cash with me, the whole thing was handled by the solicitor. I was given a receipt and copy deeds, with the final deeds due within a couple of months at the most, which I duly received.”
For those who bought through Atlas and paid cash, the waiting process began, and it was in December 2005 that people began to be concerned, thanks to a letter issued by Aroca stating the legal firm would have to take action against Tecnologia in order to obtain the deeds.
Subsequently, a number of dates were set for signing the deeds, and these dates came and went with solicitor, Aroca, stating each time, that it was Tecnologia that failed to attend the meetings. Residents told me that Atlas washed their hands of the situation altogether, saying that it was now a legal issue. People trying to get habitation certificates were bounced between Tecnologia and the Town Hall, each organisation stating it was the others’ responsibility.
Snagging reports and unfinished work on the urbanisation, including potential death-trap railings on the apartment stairwells, and a swimming pool that leaked from day one, appeared to be of no interest to either Atlas or Tecnologia.
Following a visit from a Tecnologia contractor, who asked to be let into the urbanisation to inspect the underground garages, residents once more contacted Tecnologia to find out what was going on. To their surprise, all those residents who were affected were invited to a meeting at Tecnologia’s headquarters in Torrevieja. In a short time, the president rallied some 15 residents to attend the meeting which would be held with Tecnologia commercial director, Chari Lopez. The group was made very welcome by Ms Lopez, and a second Tecnologia employee, who listened as the urbanisation president recounted the long list of concerns. When residents asked if Tecnologia was in financial trouble, Ms Lopez denied there was a problem. Residents specifically asked about the many unfinished Tecnologia projects lying abandoned around Orihuela Costa, to which Ms Lopez replied they were not abandoned, and that work was continuing.
Residents were unable to get a comprehensive explanation from Ms Lopez as to why the deeds have taken so long to sign over. She stated that there is not a problem with Tecnologia, but that Atlas was to blame for the delays. The urbanisation treasurer and other residents informed Ms Lopez that they would not leave until they were given a final date for their deeds to be handed over. Ms Lopez made a promise that the deeds would be finalised by the end of June, and that mortgages on the properties would be paid off. Residents asked once again that she was certain of this, and she replied “yes, 100 per cent”. As the group departed, the treasurer told Ms Lopez that if it didn’t happen, the next time there would be 50 or more people to answer to.
The next stop was Atlas and the immediate response from the gentleman on the front desk was that this is a legal issue. Residents were determined not to be sent away without speaking to somebody. An after-sales representative emerged, and took down details of all those houses affected. A further meeting for a maximum of four people was arranged for later that day.
Residents feel that Atlas owes them an explanation, and is obliged to assist them in obtaining their deeds to complete the buying process. In addition, residents believe they should have been alerted to any outstanding mortgages or potential problems when the final payment was due. The urbanisation treasurer said: “We put our trust in Atlas because we assumed they would take us through the whole buying process, which is not complete without the deeds. Atlas dumped us as soon as they had our final payments, I presume because they had their commission.
We might as well have just turned up in Spain and popped into any old estate agent for all the protection and service we’ve had from using a big firm with 25 years’ experience.”
I asked Atlas to comment on the situation faced by the residents of Macarena II.
The company acknowledged receipt of my questions but were unable to send a full response in time to meet my print deadline. An Atlas representative has said a response will be sent to me this week, which I will duly publish.
In a letter issued last year by solicitor, Aroca, a deed-signing date of 15 June 2007 was given to several residents.
However, a couple who made the trip from the UK especially to collect their deeds were told by Aroca that it wouldn’t happen, because Tecnologia would not show up as usual. As Aroca predicted, Tecnologia did not make an appearance at the deed signing meeting.
In a statement, Aroca told me: “We clarify that the company DESARROLLO Y TECNOLOGIA was first required by the means of a Notary Act to sign the deeds for the 28 families mentioned, and the said company responded to this with a calendar of appointments for the signing of each title deed, and we appeared at the appointed Notary in representation of our clients on the proposed date, the vendor DESARROLLO Y TECNOLOGIA, did not appear at any of these appointments, and to this effect and in the defence of the interest of our clients an ACT OF MANIFESTATION was signed before the Notary, stating the absence of the vendor without any justification.”
The statement continued: “We can assure you that the process of each case is the exact and only manner possible. We also can assure that each of the demands against DESARROLLO in the name of our clients has been presented as soon as each individual case has been studied and the necessary documentation has been obtained, the clients being informed of the action taken.”
I wrote to Ms Lopez at Tecnologia, who called me to acknowledge receipt. At the time of going to print, Ms Lopez had not called me back to answer my questions. In addition to this, residents told me that they were invited to meet with a senior figure at Tecnologia last week, when again they demanded a guaranteed signing date. Verbal assurances were made, however, telephone calls that were promised by Tecnologia did not happen, and no deed signing date has been agreed, leaving residents feeling they are no closer to getting their deeds.
I telephoned the PSOE Party, who were alerted to this case just before the elections. The PSOE now has seven councillors in opposition at Orihuela Town Hall, and their councillor who will be focusing on the coast, Rosa Martinez, will be in touch with residents of Macarena II to try to help resolve what for them is a worrying and unhappy situation.
I have since learned of another urbanisation affected in much the same way as Macarena II. These residents do not wish to be named because they are currently pursuing their case through their solicitor. But the pattern is the same. These, too, are Tecnologia houses. Residents who bought through Atlas and paid cash are fighting for their deeds; some of these people know for certain that Tecnologia has an outstanding mortgage on their properties.
Residents of Macarena II agreed to let me publish their story because they feel they have been waiting too long and have received no reasonable explanation as to why, several years since they made their final payments, they still have no deeds.
R Griffin

This message was last edited by morerosado on 6/26/2007.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Had to laugh as next story in Coastrider could just as well be about , as Bobaol, says the agent using the mountains word !! 

Rat attack
Mick from Playa Flamenca called to warn readers of a problem he encountered.
Mick and his wife holiday here on the Costa Blanca but spend most of their time back in the UK.
They leave their car with a parking service at the airport. Last week they flew in and were met by the parking service as arranged.
They were taken to their car and set off heading for Orihuela Costa. They didn’t get very far when the car just cut out. “I called the parking service,” said Mick. “They came out and recovered us back to the car park. The guy reckoned it was a flat batatery.
It was then I noticed there was no coolant.” After three litres of water the car started again and Mick set off for his home in the sun. “We made it home but the next day there was a puddle under the car. I called the Ford dealership and they said to bring the car in.”
Mick replaced the water and drove to the garage. “As soon as I arrived the car went up on the ramp and the damage was immediately apparent – Rats!”
The damage was quite extensive and some form of rodent had chewed through the coolant tube, the air conditioning tube and various wires. It cost Mick €130 for a re-wire, €184 for two new pipes for the coolant and air conditioning plus a refill of gas and €141 for car hire whilst his only transport was off the road.
“I contacted the parking service and was told that they used to put rat poison down but because they also keep dogs they stopped doing it.
I’ve informed my insurance as there are also many little scratches all across the bonnet.”
So if you leave your car with a parking service for any length of time it may be worth asking what they are insured for and what anti-rodent measures they take.
M Tissington

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

As someone who has been bitten by Atlas (and yes, I am going to use their name now) and also hasn't got the deeds after 5 years, I would like to go back to the title of this thread.  Surely the agents obligation should not stop until the sale has gone through completely and the deeds have been handed over?  I am now being treated by Atlas as "a nuisance" and they have stopped replying to my e-mails.  Considering they took me to Technologia to hand over cash when I bought (which I thought was normal as that is what they told me the system in Spain was) I feel they still have some responsibility in this matter.

For all of you buying with Atlas, please be very careful.  Nice as pie but it isn't until later that you realise they feed you a load of old rubbish. They will do anything for a sale and tell you what they think you want to hear.  I have now compiled a file of all the events, copies of my letters and emails plus some of the (anonymised) threads from this and other forums and the article from the Coastrider.  As my letters to Atlas UK offices have been fobbed off, I am sending the entire file to Watchdog so watch this space.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

When I started this thread i was hoping something like this about Atlas or its sister company Iberian International would come up because i am dealing with Iberian and have had loads of problems with them in hindsight i would not have used them but i did and living the consequences

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

At the end of the day agents, whoever, must be held accountable for wrecking others lives. This forum's full of the most horrendous stories. I sympathise with everyone who's been through the mill. It's totally unacceptable.

I agree with Bobaol " the agents obligation should not stop until the sale has gone through completely and the deeds have been handed over".

Don't forget there's a petition website www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk for anyone who is having problems so use it !

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Surely this thread should have been labelled 'When does an agents obligation START in the process of sale'.  Concerning Atlas; that clients can be taken in a people carrier to a bank to be relieved of their cash directly to a developer owes more to the style of a loan shark's debt collector than a professional estate agent. Sure, people may be naive, many of us have been - and I include myself - but that does not justify the action. Having led their clients up the garden path, likely in collusion with the developers, and then pocketed their reward, one can hardly expect that the agents would have much interest afterwards, except to repeat the scam on their next busload of victims. We hear many sad stories on this forum, but this one really appals me. I may be mistaken, but don't Atlas feature a famous face in their marketing blurb?

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

As most of you will know I am not the biggest fan of estate agents in the world and I fully concur that this is indeed a horrendous story and the fullest weight of the authorities should be brought to redress the situation. Whether it will or not I guess remains to be seen. On the other side of the coin there are some extremely reliable agents out there with a lot of integrity and honour who believe strongly that the client comes first - invariably they are not those with slick telesales marketing teams, expensive logo'd BMWs etc. There are a few of the good guys on this site and I have mentioned to a number of people that have spoken to me about generic mortgage information that even if they are coming over on their grand tour with one of the big boys they should also consider talking to some of the independents that rely more on providing good pre and after sales service to ensure they get repeat clients and recommendations - as they say there is no better form of advertising than a recommendation and these people have to do a good (possibly even great) job to ensure that a client talks the good talk. They dont have the seemingly limitless budget of the big boys and for them it is not a numbers game as in the more shit you throw at the wall the more of it will stick - they will do much fewer sales throughout a year but their clients will generally receive much better attention, honesty and assistance from start to infinity and beyond - not simply be your best friend until the money is in the bank.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know