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66D Sorry I took your comment:-
I am not required to have a 'registration certificate', as I commute to other European states on a regular basis, hence, am not here for more than 90 consecutive days. I do, of course, have an NIE number which is all that is required for all of the above.
To mean that you do not live here.
I don’t want to enter into any arguments about anyone’s particular circumstances or what they choose to believe.
I only post here to assist where I believe I can, from my experience of working as a volunteer interpreter with the CNP for 15 years, assisting actual people making actual applications for NIE, EU Cert etc. and from 25 years of being a resident here.
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I think you are confusing the rules concerning the requirement to register with actual residence.
The two are utterly different.
The registration requirement applies to EU citizens who remain in spain for 90 or more consecutive days at a time. If you (for example) pop over to Gibralta on a regular basis, or into France, the clock is reset on that. Tax residence, for example, is computed on an entirely different basis. Cumulative days, typically 183 days out of any 12 month cycle.
Also, as I have said before, the certificate in question is merely a 'proof of entitlement' to residence. It does not of itself confer those rights, which are directly derived from the Treaty and as specified in directive 2004/38 EC.
I note you rather disparrengingly refer to what people "choose to believe". I choose to believe the actual rules and regulations on this which are plainly set down and are available (in multiple languages) for anyone who bothers to consult them. I was also involved in drafting various EU Directives... so I have a fairly clear understanding of a) What they mean and b) How they should be applied.
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Me and my partner have bothe lived here for over 6 years. Our residency cards ran out last October, and we have just started looking into renewing them (if only we had done it at the time, it would have been easy)
If you have been here for 6 years you are permanent residents. There is no need to "renew" anything. You can request a certificate proving your permanent resident status (if you wish - you are not obligated to do so). This certificate must be given without preconditions and they are not entitled to request any additional documentation. This sounds like a case for SOLVIT who will intervene on your behalf.
http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/
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Thank your for your reply 66d35.
Can you tell me which part shows the following:
5) None of the above applies if you have been here 5 years or more. You now have an ABSOLUTE right to a certificate of permanent residency on request. This is unconditional. No financial other requirements permitted.
6) It should be noted that an EC citizen cannot be expelled or barred on "financial grounds alone" in any event.
7) Your 'right to reside' does not depend on permission from the Spanish State. It is a fundamental treaty right. Provided you meet your treaty obligations, you cannot be refused.
I have downloaded the 2004/38 EC etc in Spanish, and would like to take it in to show them
Regards
Gadget
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66D
".......... How they should be applied. "
Having lived in Spain 25 years I know that between how things should be done, how they are interpreted and how in practice they are applied, can be very different
Having an EU Citizens Registration Cert can make life very much simpler and can save academic arguments.
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Looking at this closer, I am classed as a Rentista (person who lives off the income from investments). For this category they want the following:
Certificado Bancario (referencia pensíon mínima de €619)
Seguro médico privado, que cubra todos los riesgos en España
As we already pay into the Valencian Health system, it has been suggested that we use the letter/contract granting that service, along with proof of payment of the last quota.
However, the majority of my income is paid in England and taxed there, being property. So it will be difficult for the bank to say how much my income is, because I only ever bring money over, as and when I need it.
I think I may just sit this one out and not bother applying
Gadget
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None of the above applies if you have been here 5 years or more. You now have an ABSOLUTE right to a certificate of permanent residency on request. This is unconditional. No financial other requirements permitted.
CHAPTER IV
Article 16 (1)
1. Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.
It should be noted that an EC citizen cannot be expelled or barred on "financial grounds alone" in any event.
"Union citizens or members of their family may be expelled from the host Member State on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. Under no circumstances may an expulsion decision be taken on economic grounds. Measures affecting freedom of movement and residence must comply with the proportionality principle and be based exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned. Such conduct must represent a sufficiently serious and present threat which affects the fundamental interests of the state"
Applications can only be turned down in three limited circumstances (public health, public policy, national security), or when a marriage is determined to be fraudulent. Reasons for refusal must be spelled out in detail and there is a right of appeal.
See: http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf
Your 'right to reside' does not depend on permission from the Spanish State. It is a fundamental treaty right. Provided you meet your treaty obligations, you cannot be refused.
See above guide which provides full citations. See pages 14-17 in particular. Note especially:
"This means that once you meet the conditions, you have the right to reside from that moment and your right is not granted to you by a decision of the host EU country. The documents you or your family members might be issued with by the host EU country merely acknowledge that you have the right"
Rather than try to argue this with them yourselves, I would suggest seeking action via SOLVIT. That is their job. It is what they do. Their services are 100% free.
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Having lived in Spain 25 years I know that between how things should be done, how they are interpreted and how in practice they are applied, can be very different.
What you are saying there is that no matter what the true situation is, no matter what the law actually says, petty funcionarios in Spain should simply be allowed to ignore all that and do what they feel like regardless, despite this subjecting other people to massive inconvenience and substantial costs? Meanwhile, rather than object and insist that rights are respected and the law followed, we should all just lay down and let them get away with it.
No thanks.
That is not a very positive aproach. If you take that attitude nothing will ever change. It is only by people insisting that their rights and freedoms are respected that change occurs.
There are very clear, EC-wide rules on all this. Spain is not exempt. They signed up to this and it is binding. Not optional.
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66D
……………………… despite this subjecting other people to massive inconvenience and substantial costs?
Ten minutes at the counter getting the green paper (at present a once in a lifetime requirement) and 10.20 euros hardly amounts to that !
Know what rights to fight for is a balance. On my scales this is not one of those cases.
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10 minutes? You must be joking.
If you live where I do, it is a 124 km drive there to hand the papers in... a 124km drive back... another 124 km drive to collect the thing, and then another 124 km drive home again. That is almost 500km of driving and a least 7 or 8 hours (if you are lucky).
You say you live in Spain. I'm beginning to wonder. You sound like you are on another planet to me....
You seem to have no idea as to the realities of this.
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You may be right 66D.
I have only lived here 25 years, 15 years ago I set up a voluntary interpreter team at one National Police Station and over the next couple of years at the invitation for 4 Comisarios at two other National Police and two Guardia Civil offices, with around 60 volunteers. I am still a volunteer working one morning a week helping victims of crime and people seeking advice and legal paperwork . ANd of course I get a lot of questions and feed-back from friends, acquaintances and people who run other clubs set up to help people.
But as you say I am probably unaware of what actually happens.
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You clearly are unaware, or would not be making ridiculously ill-informed remarks about it taking "10 minutes". The truth is that some people may live very close to a centre where these applications are processed - but others do not. If you live in Northern Almeria, for example, all applicants are sent to Almeria city, which is a very considerable distance by any standards. Further, not all offices are issuing the documents "immediately" as they are required to do upon presentation of the application and supporting paperwork. They are instead demanding a return visit, weeks later in some cases, to collect the certificate. These are facts you seem totally oblivious of. If it really was quite as convenient as you (falsely) imply I quite agree it would hardly be worth the bother of fighting it - but it isn't. There may be some offices which are close and efficient. If you have one, you are indeed lucky - but please do not assume this applies to everyone.
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66D Maybe you are fighting the wrong battle.
In the position you describe I would be trying to get the CNP to set up Documentation Centres nearer to their ‘customers’.
That would also help Spanish Nationals whom I assume also must make the same journey to obtain their passport and thus they would support such an action.
As you say I am fortunate in that there are three Documentation Offices within a 40 KM radius
As for not getting immediate service. I have on a couple of occasions asked for the Complaints Form on behalf people who needed the paperwork urgently but had been told they have to wait a month or so. In each case the certificate was issued immediately.
Excues me if you think I am "making ridiculously ill-informed remarks "
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I certainly think we have a totally different approach.
Mine is that these are EU-wide binding directives and Spain voluntarily signed up to them. They must therefore apply them in accordance with the law. Another direct example of discrimination against other EU citizens which is expressly forbidden can be found in these demands that 'foreigners' must make repeated long-distance trips (here in Almeria, at any rate) to register while Spanish nationals can register/update DNI on a local level - without such inconvenience. Discrimination of that kind is specifically outlawed.
You appear to me (with respect) to have a very compliant attitude to these abuses.
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You appear to me (with respect) to have a very compliant attitude to these abuses.
Maybe from 30 years as a police officer in the UK I got used to being patient with difficult people, and situations and learning to ignore unhelpful remarks. I try only to fight battles worth fighting and which I stand a good chance of winning.
As I said I have lived 25 years in Spain and learnt a long time ago that getting upset with the ways things are here, when they cannot be resolved, was counterproductive.
" Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference "
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I should find it surprising that as a police officer, you appear to be so ready to turn a blind eye to flagrant breaches of a) The law and b) citizens rights.
Then again, having been directly involved in a number of cases in which that issue was rather central, I am not actually that surprised at all.
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Sorry to but in guys... but as entertaining as this thread is, heres a subtle reminder of the sort of thing that most of us have to put up with...
_______________________
http://www.facebook.com/ruido.blanco.773
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