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And, believe it or not, this only started because someone wondered if they should or should not pay a speeding fine.
However:
The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms of the Council of Europe says (art. 6.2): "Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law". This convention has been adopted by treaty and is binding on all Council of Europe members. Currently (and in any foreseeable expansion of the EU) every country member of the European Union is also member to the Council of Europe, so this stands for EU members as a matter of course. Nevertheless, this assertion is iterated verbatim in Article 48 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.
Above a copy from Wiki (of course).
Oh, and despite the red herrings being bandied about, the kid was speeding (the others told him to slow down) so the fine should be paid.
This message was last edited by bobaol on 08/09/2012.
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Thank you Bobaol for the extract you have posted from the European courts, and Johnzx, please read the part, and i quote,
" "Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law"
This means if the occupants admit there is an offence commited (which they must, as there has), but cannot determine the driver from among the possible people in the car, it is up to the law to provide further definitive proof of burden that a particular person has commited an offence. The guilty party is narrowed somewhat from the local community, as the perpetrator HAS to be an occupant of the vehicle. Even so it is up to the authorities to produce firm evidence of who WAS the driver, and not by browbeating potential witnesses i might add.
And finally i concur totally with Bobaol's last comment, the boy was guilty, and should be an adult and pay the fine, Rather than be spineless and childish , letting his friend who paid the hire take the fine. He should be ashamed of himself, and Eggcup, if you are reading this, i would print this thread out and get it delivered to him, or maybe better , his parents? Maybe it would get him to think more about his position, and his obligations as he was the driver
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Robert.
I could continue with this but I think it has run its course.
Incidentally. Anyone who accepts a police caution, accepts a fixed penalty, etc. is in law guilty of the offence alleged, and thus, when the ticket, caution is given it is presumed the person is guilty. If they believe they are not they must contest it.
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Johnzx, yes you are right, you state,
" Anyone who accepts a police caution, accepts a fixed penalty, etc. is in law guilty of the offence alleged, and thus, when the ticket, caution is given it is presumed the person is guilty. "
And this is true, but the boy involved in the Spanish speeding fine was not stopped at the side of the road, if he was he would have had no defence in law, as you state. The thing is , the "ALLEGED OFFENCE" was sent to the hirers English address after the event, and so there is a defence in law ,if the alleged offender wishes to present a defence. Note the word "alleged", as until the person responsible admits, or is found to be the perpetrator, thats all it is, an alleged offence, it is still for the prosecution to prove guilt, as they did not stop him at the side of the road sitting in the drivers seat and present him with a fixed penalty fine.(they might have stopped him if he had been on UK plates and not Spanish hire car ones)
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Not sure where you get the 'alleged' from. Maybe I missed it in all the posts.
Hi there
A friend's son and a group of his friends hired a car in Spain. Once back in the UK they received notification from the car hire company and the police in two separate communications that they were caught by a camera speeding and must pay 300 euros. What would you all advise? I tend to think they should ignore it, but would like to be able to give my friend some other opinions.
I think they have presumed guilt, but the alleged offender can of course dispute it as I said, and they will get the photos as my neighbour did.
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The driver was irresponsibly speeding, as the others told him to slow down &, because I guess it was very fast not a few km over the limit too, thank goodness they didn't have an accident, maiming or killing them all plus maybe others. Was the driver insured as a designated driver on insurance policy? I suggest they should count their blessings - I think they got off lightly - & cough up.
_______________________
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If anyone wants to know the real legal position in cases like this please search in google, EU cross border traffic offences enforcement.
You will find even a pdf of the EU directive on such cases.
This explains everything you will need to know.
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Johnzx if as you say you have had many years dealing with the legal system your treatment of terminology amazes me. I use the word "alleged" as the legal system does exactly the same, it matters not wether an offence is committed or not, until the offender is proved in a court of law, by either confession, or the strength of evidence, anything put before the court is an alleged offence as the case at that point has not been proved. Once proved it is no longer alleged, it is simply an offence. At that point the ALLEGED OFFENDER becomes the GUILTY PARTY. You do not seem very informed as to legal terminology for someone who has dealt in legal circles for many years, or are you just being naughty and provocative?
Morerosado, i totally agree with you, there speaks the voice of reason. All i hope is it has taught the driver a lesson and he will drive more safely in any country he is in.
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Andyintorre, i have just done as you suggested and found this web page,
http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/statements/penning-20110405/
the first couple of paragraphs state the following,
The Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning): I wish to inform the House that the Government has decided not to opt in to the proposed Directive facilitating cross-border enforcement in the field of road safety at this stage.
The draft Directive intends to improve enforcement of certain road traffic offences committed using vehicles registered in another Member State. It aims to facilitate the exchange of registered keeper data between Member States’ registration authorities, to help identify offenders.
While broadly supportive of the objectives behind this measure, the UK did not opt in to the Directive because, on balance, it did not appear to be in the UK’s interests to do so at this stage.
In the UK we prosecute drivers for road traffic offences, rather than vehicle keepers. Given that the Directive only provides for the exchange of vehicle keeper information, we had concerns around our ability to effectively pursue fines against the drivers of the vehicles, in the absence of effective provision to compel foreign registered keepers to disclose who was driving the vehicle when the offence was committed.
Bearing this in mind, it relates to the law and the provision of innocent until proved guilty, as i have already stated earlier, it also raises the point , why should the hirer of the car be held responsible when another person was driving it? theinitial summons should be sent to the hirer, and then it is the hirers responsibility to either admit the offence or supply the drivers name to the relevant authorities.
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Robert.
The Spanish fixed penalty ticket has been issued, or so we are lead to believe. So the Spanish authorities are treating the driver at the time of the photo, as guilty.
Using the term ‘alleged’ is really only a matter of semantics, which the UK system prefer as they are always concerned that if they say what they believe they may be sued. But as I said, there is no question of alleged where a fixed penalty ticket or fine is issued. The presumption is guilty, which can of course be questioned. If it is not then the penalty will be collected, as the hire car company will pay and then will charge it to the customer's credit card.
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Johnzx, the english authorities use the term because UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, by way of evidence or confession, an act is precisely that, an act, and until blame is determined an offence can only ever be alleged, or what is the point of having a court system. It has nothing to do with a belief that they may be sued. If you think that, your knowledge of the legal system is at best romantic. The UK legal system deal in actual FACT not wether they may be sued or not. To presume this makes your vision of the English legal system at best laughable, and at worst fatlly biased,which the legal system is not supposed to be.
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Robert
as we seem to be straying from the facts and the argument, into making uncomplimentary remarks, I do not wish to continue this hitherto intelligent argument any further.
Have a good one.
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I think by now eggcup has had more than enough advice and insults.
It would be nice of her to let us all know what advice she has passed to her friends son.
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I think by now eggcup has had more than enough advice and insults.
It would be nice of her to let us all know what advice she has passed to her friend's son.
This message was last edited by haydngj on 08/09/2012.
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Nice one, as the UK did not implment the EU directive regarding traffic offences the spanish legal system cannot enforce the fine in the UK. However if the accused driver is stopped in Spain at some point in he future it will be expensive.
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On the EU website you can find the full directive were its quite clear the UK is not party to the cross border traffic offences enforcement directive.
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Andyintorre, from my experiences throughouut the EU, and here in the UK police usually stop foreign registered drivers and take them to the nearest police station, and as soon as practicable have a court hearing, and summarily fine or disqualify the driver. This happens routinely with freight drivers, and the drivers company usually arranges a solicitor for the case, and pays the fine by electronic transfer. this is not to side with the driver but to ensure the load is still delivered, hopefully on time. The driver has usually to face some very awkward questions when he gets back home.
Doing it this way tends to keep any court action within that countries borders, and also due to another cross border agreement, any fines and /or endorsements are informed to the drivers country of origin. This way the arm of the law is somewhat short but still very effective
And Haydngj, yes it would be nice if Eggcup could bring us up to date relating to the original thread, and what has happened
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Hi there
Sorry don't have full feedback yet. Been busy with the kids all day and now going to have a glass of wine. I texted my friend and said to let me know as soon as he knows if his son's credit card has been charged, but he didn't know if he could access it on-line so there's a little delay. If the money does get taken, then I'm favouring him first contacting the credit card company to see if they can claim it back, for being wrongfully taken. Although his card was used, the other one was the named driver, so this might work. If that doesn't work I'm thinking he could threaten the car hire company with legal action using the same argument.
Another approach, as someone mentioned, is to get all the boys to split the bill, or the driver to pay the lot, but that's a matter for them to fight out between themselves.
In terms of the driver, he's not my prime concern and I won't spend much time advising him. I think he was very wrong to speed and especially when he could have been putting his friends' and other road-users' lives at risk. If the fine remains unpaid and he then re-enters Spain and gets done for it, then he can deal with it. I think the fine was too high, but he's over 20 now and should be trying to deal with it; instead he's left it as a problem for my friend's son.
If the above options fail I'll go through all the posts again with a fine tooth comb to get more ideas - one problem with so many responses is that it's hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. But thanks everyone and I will let you know when I know if the car hire company took the money etc.
_______________________
My account of moving to Spain. http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/olives.aspx"><img
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I have followed this thread with some amusement. Amazing how a simple question can lead to all these comments. Good & bad. Quite simply they were all in the car and must all take responsibility. If his friends are unwilling to chip in, then obviously they are friends not worth having. Life isn't always fair, so would suggest he pays the fine and doesn't put himself in this position again.
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