Not been on this forum for a while , but look at the weekly bullitin sent to me by EOS

This topic has spurred me to make a comment .I visited Catalunia in the 70;s and early 80's as a sprog , and was totally charmed by the Catalunians who couldnt get enough British culture (music , language & even clothing )

After 25 years away , I wasnt nieve enough to think that things wouldnt have changed , but man ....what a surprise !

All the slightly stifeling thirst for the outside , has been replaced by an even more stifeling need to display how Catalonian

( or in fact not ) they are ......or arnt ......

The consequence is that everyone has to speculate when engaging someone new should one say "Bon dia" or not .

Geting it wrong to a catalonian is either of no issue , or more likely...... a total forgetting of any other mutual languages or will to communicate .

I have a bar owning mate who is a polylingual expat Brit who prides himself in guessing which language to greet customers in just by the appearance of approaching customers . 

Getting it wrong to anyone would not be an issue , other than Catalonian , where he then expects a frosty reply .

The area is a great place , with some great people , but nobody truely speaks their mind openly just in case , which is sad .

Locals feel more akin to someone from Perpignan than anyone in southern spain ( but they also dislike the French )

Further south ( towards Barcelona ) they are far more relaxed about their Catalonian-ness , and as a result are far more engaging .

Independance , to me , would add.. or take away nothing ,

other than ...just another level of being ....for people to subscribe to........or not ........or both.....or none....

More complicated than it need be . Shame. 

I’ve lived here for over 20 years in both the capital and in villages. I was married to a Catalan from a very nationalistic background and have a son who has studied the past 16 years in the catalan education system.

I have loved living here over the past 20 years but recent events are certainly worrying and could in the long term determine whether I still feel I have a place here. Mr Mas is playing his part very well, making the most of what appears to be a “perfect storm” in that most Catalan political parties appear to be in disarray and amazingly Mas has managed to convince a large section of the population that the problem is not his cuts he has been implementing over the past 2 years but instead it’s the “anti-Catalan” Spanish central government that’s the problem.  I do have sympathy for the idea of a re-negotiation of the percentage of Catalan GDP that is  sent to spain in the form of “Catalan taxes”, 8% is quite steep  but one can also the other side of the story in that maybe this is not the moment to be asking for concessions that are impossible to meet at the moment due to the current economic period we are in. However, like a spoilt child who doesn’t get his way, Mas decides that he is now on the independence bandwagon and voila, on top of an economic crisis and political crisis we now have on the horizon a social crisis as well.  Mr Mas is “black belt” politician and always has a couple of aces up his sleeve and I’m not sure how far he is willing to take this, many don’t trust him and feel that he will eventually let all the independence seekers down in the long run….only time will tell.

What I find quite worrying are the questions that are being started to get asked about what would independence look like, strange there are not many answers as one would think that if there was a real desire for independence and with independence political parties like ERC and SI this would all have been investigated and close to hand – not so it would seem. For many people who support independence, their  number 2 question, after the “would we stay in the EU” question is “in what league would Barça play in?”…… after hearing that I’m not sure I can take all this seriously enough!   Anyway, I myself have asked what would independence look like for me and how would it affect me?  EU membership still valid? Currency to be used? Currency devaluation? My pension? Is the new state viable? Who in Europe would be support the new state? What languages would be official? How much business would be lost or gained? Could there be new opportunities for ex-pats in the new state? Etc etc etc….. We definitely don’t have answers to all the questions, I am sure we are going to have to put up with debate after debate after debate on this subject for many years to come….yes years! It’s pretty clear that centralist parties in catalunya will loose heavily in the next elections and nationalist parties will gain so we’ve got this for years to come.     

To sum up…. I preferred CiU when they were less nationalist, they had my support to get better fiscal agreements but I believe they have set us on a road into the unknown which is something dear to many catalans – I am not catalan so therefore I prefer to make my own mind up based on facts, currently they haven’t convinced me. I can only hope in the long term that politicians from both sides come to their senses and sit down and negociate. What we need are jobs, growth, stability and above all strong political leaders who leave prejudices behind them and understand the other ones point of view and above all negociate. If Catalunya really wants independence them get the facts on the table, convince the MAJORITY of the population and don’t concentrate on the “patriotic” emotional vote.   

 Thanks for that, great and sensible post xzvmm3. I have to agree with you it is worrying that so few know th facts, my family in Granollers tell me the same story.

I think there is a lot if mis-understand here about what exactly independence would mean, and the likely ramifications for both Spain and Cataluña.

Firstly, Cataluña is one of the most economicly and demographically important areas of Spain. Cataluña contributes far mroe to the national budget than it gets back simply because it has a ton of large industrial centres and corproate headquarters in and around Barcelona. Spain uses some of the revenue Cataluña contributes to the treasury to fund development in the less developed regions as well as for nationwide infrastructure projects. Spain's ability to borrow money is also to some degree dependent on future tax revenues from Cataluña. As such, Spain is keen NOT to loose Cataluña, not just because of a sence of national pride and identity, but also because it needs that region.

If Cataluña was to become independent, there is no reason it would not be in the EU. This matter has been discussed in the EU before in relation to Scottish independence, and the opinion of the EU authorities is that both sucessor nations would inerhit EU membership on the same terms in the event of seperation, i.e. both the remaining areas of Spain as well as Cataluña would retain EU, Eurozone and Schengen membership - just as Scotland and the remaining areas of the UK would remain EU members.  As such, there is extremely unlikely to be any kind of "exodus" of businesses from Cataluña, as just like the SNP in Sctoland, the nationalists are well known and established political figures who are fully "brought in" to the corporate political machineary. That also means that things would be extremely unlikely to improve for the average citizen. The nationalists are just as comitted to the neo-lieberal economic model and permanent austerity, despite their talk of progressive policies and crocodile tears over money going to Madrid which "could" be spent on public services - as if that would actually happen, and not just more tax breaks for the "Masters of the Universe".

Military intervention is just a fantasy of old Francoists and isn't on the cards. This isn't 1982, and everyone knows it. If any general actually attempted such a thing, it'd be the last thing he'd ever do in uniform. I would hazard a guess that independence was an unstoppable political force in Cataluña, that Madrid would reluctantly bite the bullet and take the financial loss, but seek to preserve the best ties possible for the sake of her own business interests. The real issue would come down to haggling over dull but economically important issues like control and sharing of Ebro waters, ownership of assets such as ports, airport and railways, fishing rights etc.

LlegarALasEstrellas wrote;

" If Cataluña was to become independent, there is no reason it would not be in the EU."

Unfortunately there is. It would have to apply for membership which requires full agreement of all existing members. Spain would obviously vote no. So might the UK re; Scotland , although that is less likely. Where would that leave the Cataluñians then ?

 Absolutely no one in Europe believes that Catalunya will get it's independance, and it will certainly not get automatic membership to the EU, that is just dreaming and false propaganda. To believe the contrary I believe is just being naive. Of course Spain does not want to loose Catalunya anymore than it would want to loose any other region. The idea that Spain is holding onto a country and not letting it go to reap it's benefits is all wrong. We are not talking about an occupied country here, but a Spanish region, no different to the Valencian Community or any other. I sincerely think that Mas doesn't even believe it, but he has to be seen to be doing something to maintain his votes. You can bet your bottom dollor that the interational companies will leave, they didn't go to Barcelona because it was Catalunya, but because it was Spain and a member of the EU and geographically well located for the rest of Europe for logistical decisions. So I do think there would an exodus, primarily because of the uncertainty. Quite obviously military intervention is not an option, but it will never get to that. Don't forget that 47% of Catalunya's revenue comes from the Spanish population. Don't you think that would be affected if they were to go independant. I'm pretty sure the Spanish would start to boicot products from Catalunya as the Catalans already do now very descreetly by putting a Catalan flag on the shelves in the supermarkets to promote their own products as opposed to other products from the rest of Spain. 

According to an opinion poll carried out by the Generalitat's Centre of Opinion Studies (CEO), 74.1% of Catalans are in favour of holding a referendum to decide wether Catalonia should become an independent European State.

To be honest I am surprised it is not higher than 74.1 %

A public opinion poll is most certainly not a referendum , as people not wanting independence may also want to vote .

Whatever the outcome - it will need time to repair peoples goodwill .

I suggest people that have their mis-informed opinions in this situation view this impartial documentary.

http://vimeo.com/24457023

 Video paid for no doubts from the coffers of CiU or ERC.....  Look, we all know the problems between Spain & Catalunya, those of us who have been here over 20 years are not blind so don't assume we have "mis-informed opinions"!  Remember that not all Catalans( and Expats) want to live in the promised land of the CiU Republic, Catalunya is "plural" and the Independance Movement in order to succeed need a larger majority so therfore need to appeal to a wider audience, not just the hard core radical independance groups and the recently joined members who want independance for economic reasons.  If the Independance movement is intelligent, it appears to be so, then they will realise that their message has to be adapted in order to achieve their goals. 

 Slightly confusing messages coming from that region at the moment.  Watching the news the other night it showed thousands of demonstrators calling for independence.  However, this then appears

Keep Catalunya Spanish

 The demonstration for independance on the 11st Sept had some1.5Million participants. Yesterday's had some 65 thousand....... very different in size but what was interesting is it's the 1st time any such demonstration has taken place in Catalunya.  

K 5ive - I am not sure who's opinion you think  is "mis-informed .    Everyone can only speak as they see things .

I do not have any  "  for or against " an independant Catalunya ......... it is not for me to choose .

It will , as a property owner ultimately affect me though .

I see this subject evolving daily , so any documentary could be up to date , or indeed not .

Barcelona is not the same as the part of the region I know ,  the views and beliefs there do differ .

So an exchange of views from around the whole is of interest to me ( and maybe others ) , so I for one welcome , and encourage all to put their views however well informed .

 Coca Cola's bottling and distribucion partner for all of Spain, Cobega (owned by a Catalan family) will be leaving Catalunya due to the recent independant movements and the politics of Artur Mas. They will start the move on 26th of November to base their headquarters in Madrid. One of the largest companies in Catalunya isn't going to wait to see what happens, they're moving now. This may start off a chain reaction for other companies to do the same. It seems like the damage has already been done and can only get worse. This means they will be paying their tax to Madrid now and not Catalunya, a blow to the Catalan economy. Those who thought that the companies wouldn't be moving, should now have a reason to worry.

Hundreds of thousands form human chain for Catalan independence

Hundreds of thousands of people joined hands to form a human chain across Catalonia in a massive show of support for the independence movement as the region celebrated its national day on Wednesday.
Organized by Catalonia’s National Assembly (ANC) political organization at 5.14pm, “La Via Catalana” was the centerpiece of the events marking this year’s Diada, which comes amid intense debate between Catalan leaders and the central Madrid government over the northwest region’s right to hold a referendum on sovereignty.
Around 400,000 people officially signed up to take part in the chain, according to the ANC, which said the real number of participants was much higher given that the chain comprised several rows on many stretches of the route.
“La Via Catalana for independence has been an unprecedented success,” said ANC president Carme Forcadell afterwards. “We want a state, to which we have the right. […] Today we showed it to the world.
“We want it now, not in 2016,” she added, referring to the hint made by regional premier Artur Mas last week that plebiscite-style elections might be held in 2016 if the referendum is not allowed to be held next year.
“We want 2014 to become the first year of our liberty,” she concluded to a huge ovation in Barcelona’s Plaça Catalunya where many had gathered after the chain.

The human chain spanned the whole of the region, stretching along the coast from the French border in the north to the south of Tarragona, a distance of around 400 kilometers. The initiative was inspired by the 600-kilometer-long chain formed by citizens of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to demand their independence from the Soviet Union in 1989.
Mas — who did not participate in the Via himself in order to “preserve” the institution, though many leading members of his CiU Catalan nationalist bloc did — used the run-up to the chain to repeat his call for dialogue with Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s government over a proposed independence vote. Mas said he would negotiate with the Popular Party leader “until the end” to obtain the referendum. At the same time, he also warned that the Spanish state would have “a serious problem of relations with Catalonia” if it did not find a way to channel Catalan anxieties over deciding its future.
In a brief press conference after the institutional Diada del Onze de Setembre ceremony, Mas said he was convinced that the human chain for independence would serve to launch an unequivocal message to the outside world that Catalans want to “exercise their right to decide.”

For the first time in its history the Popular Party (PP) held an alternative to the official Diada ceremony, which is organized by the regional government each year in the Parc de la Ciutadella. Around 200 PP supporters gathered in the symbolic Plaça del Rei, where the Catholic Monarchs, Ferdinand and Isabella, received Christopher Columbus after his arrival from his first voyage to the Americas. “From this place, from Barcelona, the first monarchs of Spain, the Catholic Monarchs, learned of the existence of America and Spain knew it would be the greatest nation in the world,” said Catalan PP leader Alicia Sánchez-Camacho.

The senator told Mas not to use the Diada as a world showcase for the independence drive and criticized him for equating the human chain with the march for civil rights led by Martin Luther King in the United States in 1963. “It is not necessary for Mas to pledge to pass into history. He is not going to be a great statesman. His only legacy is going to be one of division. Mas distinguishes between the first-class Catalans and the second-class ones, the bad ones. And that does not make a good president,” she said.

(el pais)