Gibraltar ownership - is it merely a political distraction?

I came onto EOS to see what the consensus was vis a vis Rajoy's government getting fiesty over Gib, but as there didn't seem to be any comment...

It seems the Gibraltan administration dropping 70 concrete blocks into the sea, is deemed a menace to Spanish fishing.  I try not to be bias, but surely this is being exaggerated as a bit of bashing the patriotic drum to create excitement and distract the population from their economic ills.  Or is there is more too it?

The 50 euro charge to cross the border into Gib has to be illegal under European law and in any event lots of local Spanish nations need to make the journey daily to work there.  Can it really be a serious threat - surely Rajoy would be shooting himself in the foot to carry it out?

Lots of nations including the Spanish have overseas territories that have become allied to them due to events hundreds of years ago.  So why is it that the Brits always seem to be getting a hard time?  The people of Gibraltar clearly wish to stay independent and allied to the UK and that's not going to change, so what's it all about?  Is it just a smokescreen?  But either way it must be pretty dire for those who are obliged to travel to across the border regularly right now.

Personally I hope that Cameron takes a hard line on this and involves the EU.  IMHO the last few UK governments have been lacking in support for UK nationals caught up in the land grab and absurd Spanish building planning fiascos and a tougher stance is well overdue.

It would be particularly good to hear from any Spanish nationals on the subject as the little there has been in the UK media has been rather one sided and have not really explained the Spanish perspective.

 

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Well all I can say is that the local press isn't supporting the Spanish Exterior Minister Garcia-Margallo, they have pictured him as an extremist and adament on recovering Gibraltar for the Spanish people. He is famed as saying he will not step foot on Gibraltar until a Spanish flag is flying on it. His tactics were referred to as being from the era of Franco by one national newspaper and they make it pretty clear that the real problem here is a lack of dialogue. The Spanish in general couldn't care less about Gibraltar and the politicians are making a big deal out of nothing. The different tax levels does create extra work for the Spanish on the border but the decision to study a entry fee into Spain is just ridiculous and I can not see it happening. I think it is just a smokescreen after Rajoy troubles in parliament the other day and they are trying to play on the Spanish patriotism which isn't as strong as the British in my opinon.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Intresting OP and response.

Its a worrying development for those who cross regularly, hopefully just a political distraction

Here is the latest from the BBC, if you scrool down the report you will see where the seventy concerete blocks have been laid to form a reef. 

What we are not being told is why the reef is needed and if there was a consultation with the Spanish over the project. I think it's fair to expect that the Spanish should have been consulted about what seems a major project, I can understand why they have the hump if they weren't

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23578559

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

I lived in Gibraltar as a boy for 3 years when the border was closed ( 1963 ) and in fact had to fly via the atlantic over Portugal in an RAF plane to land at the airport. Every now and then, this Gib / Spain issue would rise to the surface and the Union Jacks would be flying from every balcony on the housing estates in Gib. Truth is most Gibraltarians speak Spanish as a first language of choice and over the years Ive seen the Spanish area bordering up to Gib "La Linia" growing and prospering and now unrecognisable .  As we are now in the EU and Spain insnt the same place it was in Franco years maybe we should find out why Gibraltarians dont want to have closer links with Spain. Truth is , from a personal view, having returned to Gib on several cruise ships over the last 10 years I find Gibraltar a bit dissapointing with many places, overcrowded run down and dirty so it seems being part of Britain is not all is cracked up to be. Did we ever think Hong Kong would be handed back to China .. NO. But it happened and Hong Kong still prospers. Maybe, just maybe, Gibraltar would prosper as part of Spain and in a free Europe it would be better off building on its status as a cruise ship destination .    In modern times the world is changing quickly and it would be interesting to understand what Gibraltarians worry is all about ?

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Symbolism I suppose; always an opportunity when there is bad news to be buried. Useful too when you want to wind up the populations to a patriotic fervour. Thankfully, folk are not so dumb these days as they once were - I hope.

Let it not be forgotten that the spark that started the conflagration of World War Two was the difficulties related to the vexatious Danzig Corridor. Yet another blue touch paper inserted by the asses who drew up the notorious Versailles Treaty. Then there was the Berlin fiasco when the belligerent Soviets refused land communications to Berlin.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Did we ever think Hong Kong would be handed back to China . NO. But it happened and Hong Kong still prospers. Maybe, just maybe, Gibraltar would prosper as part of Spain

 

Hong Kong was on a lease which was about to expire, so iy had to be handed back.  China has (apparently) permitted the former colony to continue as it was, i.e. not as a part of China, governed by the same rules and regulations.

 

The only way Gib would be able to continue as it now is,  would be for Spain to give in special status to operate as an (independent) financial centre.   I do not think Spain would permit that.  It would thus become a suburb of La Linea and slip, with La Linea into a third world state, as it was during the 16 years the border was closed.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Why would any sensible Gibraltanean want to become Spanish . There is not one reason why they would choose to go with Spain .  Look what has happened in the last two week-ends with crazy strict border controls on the pretext of preventing drug smuggling .  They act like spoiled children , jealous of Gibrlaltar' s standard of living but they always forget that over 3000 Spaniards come to work in Gib every day . Where would La Linea be without Gib . Spain should be appeasing the population not hardening their stance with their stupid pettiness.  As one newpaper said yesterday sabre rattling  -crying  babies in their prams .

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Tamsin,  I think your 3,000 Spanish workers in Gib is a bit low.

Antonio Hernando, secretary for Institutional relations for PSOE, told a press conference that PSOE will firmly defend Spanish interests, the workers and the fishermen of the area as well as the environment. But they said this should be done in a responsible manner with the British authorities. They also expressed the view that the 7,000 Spanish workers are the real victims of the Madrid measures.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

The artificial reefs were dropped to stop the fishermen illegally drag netting in Gibraltar waters from what I understand.

Gibraltarian people do not want to be handed back to Spain because they are gibraltarian! Some may speak Spanish as their first language but they are fiercely independent and extremely nationalistic, Gibraltar first then British. It's nice to see a nation so patriotic! They are not penalised for draping themselves in their national flag come national day unlike some other countries I won't mention.

I lived in Spain until I was 4 then uk until 4 years ago when I got a job in Gibraltar. Gib has grown on me so much so I'm planning to move there during the week instead of living full time in Spain. The Gibraltar govt looks after their people and they prosper, why on earth would they want to be handed back to an almost bankrupt country that hates them? The entire coast up to Estepona would die if that happened as its not just the Spanish who work there but countless other nationalities who live in Spain but work in Gibraltar.

In my opinion the gibraltarians would take up pitchforks and fight hand to hand before they become Spanish. Lol

The same old argument flares up whenever Spain wants to distract the public from some corruption charge or other. It will probably die down soon....
Daniela
This message was last edited by Daniela on 06/08/2013.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

As many of you know, I myself am Gibraltarian, although I live in Spain.

The UK will never hand over the rock.  It's stregically too important for them.  If it wasn't important from an MOD point of view then I think they possibly might have just let Spain have it!

The Gibraltarians do NOT want to be Spanish, even if they do speak Spanish (although mostly not brilliantly) and many have second homes here.

Gibraltar is a thriving place.  It's very wealthy and a huge number of spaniards work there.  Salaries are much higher than across the border in Spain.   When the Spanish government starts creating trouble at the border they are adversely affecting thousands of their own people, but they seem to fail to see that making decisions hundreds of miles away in Madrid.

The town which borders Gibraltar, La Linea, has an unemployment rate of around 40%.  I believe even the town hall hasn't paid its staff for months.  There is such a dramatic difference in the standard of living separated by that metal gate.  No Gibraltarian in their right mind would want that gate taken down and merged with one of the poorest towns in the area.

Gibraltar hasn't suffered in any way from the global recession.  Most Gibraltarians have no real concept of a "crisis" and they would like to continue in their safe and secure closed environment.

After all the global economic meltdown of the past few years....why wouldn't they want to keep it that way?

The Spanish government can do what they want but Gibraltar will stay just as it is forever.

By the way, it's too cramped for me which is why I live in Spain 

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

The Spanish are doing with Gibraltar what the Argentinians did with the Falkland Islands. Kicking up a big fuss to distract it's people from the economic woes of it's own country.

My brother in law has lived in Buenos Aires for over 30years and has an Argentinian family. He says that most Argentinians, especially the young are not interested in gaining back the Islands.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Good point Tish and the reality is that most Spaniards don't give two hoots about what happens with Gibraltar, apart from those who work there.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

"Maybe, just maybe, Gibraltar would prosper as part of Spain"

A comment on the 5th of August.

The measures that Spain has taken on the frontier have affected, financially, in one way or another, approximately 250,000 people living in the Campo de Gibraltar, the area around Gibraltar that includes towns such as La Linea, San Roque, Los Barrios, Algeciras, Jimena de La Frontera etc. The Chairman of the Assoc.of Spanish Workers in Gibraltar says without Gibraltar La Linea is nothing. The Mayoress of La Linea says the Madrid is the enemy and Gibraltar is the friend. The Association of Municipalities of the C de G (La Mancomunidad), say that Gibraltar is "the factory" of the area, the only place where wealth and work is being created. Most Spaniards agree that Gibraltar falling into Spanish hands would be an economic disaster for the area.

The concrete blocks positioned on the sea bed are not any old concrete blocks. They are of Spanish design and are approved by Greenpeace España and Verdemar 2 organisations whose aim is to protect the environment. The blocks have holes in them where sea grass is planted, the aim being to create a breeding ground for fish where the stock is virtually exhausted. The self same blocks have been positioned in many places in Andalucia by the Junta. Greanpeace and Verdemar have expressed their satisfaction with what Gibraltar has done.

Spain argues that Spanish fishermen are being prevented from fishing as the blocks make it impossible to fish, It's true, they are designed for that purpose. As usual the situation is not simple. Gibraltar and the UK say the blocks are in Gibraltar waters. Spain says Gibraltar does not have any territorial waters. Meanwhile Dr. Jesús Verdú, Spain's leading expert in international law says of course Gibraltar has waters due to Spain and the UK having signed the Treaty of Montego Bay in 1982. Jesus says the Spanish government are in the wrong, he has arbitrated for the UN all over the world but the Spanish government don't listen to him.

The fishermen, in reality it seems to be a question of a single fisherman, Sr. Goméz, owner of the Divina Providencia operating out of La Linea. He has a wife and two adult sons who are both out of work. He admits that he trawls for shell fish, a practice that is illegal in Spain and say that he has no other source of income. In the Daily Telegraph he was reported as saying that he feels "used" by the government for political purposes. The rightwing newspaper ABC which is attacking the UK on all fronts at the moment with about 4 articles on the go at the same time tells a different story.

The Spanish government are racking up the pressure against the UK and Gibraltar by the hour, there is talk of imposing a 50€ charge for crossing the frontier, 100€ for a return trip and it is reported in the Spanish press that the Foreign Minister, Margallo of the Partido Popular is going to Buenos Aires in the near future with a view to organising a joint campaign with Argentina to regain control of the Falklands and Gibraltar.

Many Spaniards are becoming extremely worried about the line that the government is taking against a fellow member of the EU, a NATO ally and major trading partner. All parties other than the PP are demanding that Rajoy, the President present himself in Parliament to explain his policy, and his own party in La Linea are strongly criticising him. People are starting to recall the days of Franco.

I would be a liar if I said I don't find this situation worrying, I find it very worrying. I'm married to a Spanish lady from La Linea, I have lots of local knowledge about what is going on and the fact is that a quarter of a million Spaniards are extremely angry with their government. The Guardia Civil on the frontier are doing their job whilst not being in total agreement with what they are being instructed to do. They are seeing their own friends and in some cases family members badly affected by the very dubious action of the Government. There is an enormous groundswell of resentment building up.

So what next? Well, despite being well informed I don't have a crystal ball. We will have to wait and see.

Anyone wanting to check the situation on the frontier can do so here: http://www.frontierqueue.gi/frontiercamera.aspx

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This message was last edited by ehw on 11/08/2013.

This message was last edited by ehw on 11/08/2013.

This message was last edited by ehw on 11/08/2013.

This message was last edited by ehw on 11/08/2013.

This message was last edited by ehw on 11/08/2013.

This message was last edited by ehw on 11/08/2013.

This message was last edited by ehw on 11/08/2013.

This message was last edited by ehw on 12/08/2013.

This message was last edited by ehw on 12/08/2013.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know