Legal action in UK over spanish properry debt

Has anyone encountered legal action in the UK over unpaid spanish property debt? I have recently discovered that UCI bank have now employed a UK based solicitor to chase me for a supposed debt I owe from 2010 when I handed my property over to the bank. I am being threatened with a UK charge on my property-papers now served, and any advice or help I can get would be appreciated. When I purchashed this property in 2003 I was unaware that this could happen.

I am very sorry for the predicament that you find yourself in but can't understand why you didn't think that it could happen. Probably in 2003 is was unlikely but as so many people have now walked away from their debt, the banks have decided to take action to recover their money. Can you really blame them?

 Most, if not all of us who bought pre 2007/8 have lost money, It's one of the risks you take when buying a property anywhere. Many people in the UK are in negative equity and owe more than their home is worth.

I can only suggest that you get some legal advice, but would be surprised if you are not held resposible for the outstanding mortgage.

In the UK if you handed the keys back on a property you couldn't afford anymore and the final selling price was less then what was owed on it then you the person who took out the mortgage or loan were liable for any short fall, always has been this way, if the lender choose not to pursue the debt  and just wrote it of then you were one of the lucky ones.

Why should any bank or money lender suffer if you cant keep the payments up and break the agreement that you were only to glad to get in the first place, thats not the lenders fault, and as we are in the EU, like it or not, you can be chased for the outstanding debt if the lender choose's to.

Turn the situation around and you are owed money and had a way of getting it back, what would you do?

A couple of articles that may be relevant to your situation pjb68?

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/costaluz/11035/Legal-tip-1005-As-funds-come-dations-need-to-be-accepted-by-Spain-Banks.aspx

http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/ley5768/6258/clausula-suelo---floor-limitground-clause-on-mortgages.aspx

In the UK if you handed the keys back on a property you couldn't afford anymore and the final selling price was less then what was owed on it then you the person who took out the mortgage or loan were liable for any short fall, always has been this way, if the lender choose not to pursue the debt  and just wrote it of then you were one of the lucky ones.

Why should any bank or money lender suffer if you cant keep the payments up and break the agreement that you were only to glad to get in the first place, thats not the lenders fault, and as we are in the EU, like it or not, you can be chased for the outstanding debt if the lender choose's to.

Turn the situation around and you are owed money and had a way of getting it back, what would you do?

That's an interesting point. Have the bank actually suffered? I mean they didn't actually give any money to anyone - they created it out of other people's savings (at a ratio of about 1:9, rather than backing it up with gold or silver). There is a big movement in Britain at the moment about this exact premis - why should banks be allowed to create money, with no collateral to back it up? When they lend you 'money', they don't actually, it is created on a computer. So, when they try and get this 'money' back, many people are refusing on the basis that none was exchanged in the first place.

I'm no expert on this situation but there are many interesting videos out there of people writing their mortgages off (and credit cards and loans) due to this very reason. Ask the bank to prove that they gave you the money to buy the property. They won't be able to because they gave it to the developer/seller. It's an interesting idea and many people are working this out.

Hi Fazarelli, sorry but I don't follow your reasoning.  In the conveyancing process the bank transmits the agreed mortgage amount by CHAPS or similar to the solicitor.  The fact that it is done electronically does not affect anything.  Previously it was done by bank draft, which I suppose could be argued was just a bit of paper, but wongly.

So I cannot begin to follow your logic, please can you clarify.

I concur with the other posts pjb68 has received - these days you have to expect debtors to come afer you in this situation and obtaining legal advice, some of which can be done free, is the only action to take.

That's an interesting point. Have the bank actually suffered? I mean they didn't actually give any money to anyone - they created it out of other people's savings (at a ratio of about 1:9, rather than backing it up with gold or silver). There is a big movement in Britain at the moment about this exact premis - why should banks be allowed to create money, with no collateral to back it up? When they lend you 'money', they don't actually, it is created on a computer. So, when they try and get this 'money' back, many people are refusing on the basis that none was exchanged in the first place.

I'm no expert on this situation but there are many interesting videos out there of people writing their mortgages off (and credit cards and loans) due to this very reason. Ask the bank to prove that they gave you the money to buy the property. They won't be able to because they gave it to the developer/seller. It's an interesting idea and many people are working this out.

Yes, the bank has suffered because if everyone did this then they would stop lending out money, a fact that has been tested and proved to almost breaking point over the past few years with people having trouble to get a house loan. 

Just because no 'Cash' money has changed hands on the house sale doesn't mean that money didn't get transferred from the banks account to yours, or the lenders account who you pay back the borrowed loan to.  

A bank is no more then a money shop, you pay into your account, they then lend it to someone else, for this service they give you a little something extra on your money, they charge the borrower a little something extra as well, which they keep...to lend out again and again.

How was money created before computers came along?  If no monies were exchanged how did you buy your car or house then?  Paper / computer / cheque or otherwise still real money in the true sense is exchanged.

A bank has to make a profit to lend money out, love them or hate them, it's still a business like all the others, don't hear anyone moaning when the bank lends them £200,000 to buy a house which they later sold for £300,000,  making £100,000 profit on perhaps a few monthly payments back to the bank.

A bank will close down a multi billion pound company if it pulls in a loan, perhaps some companies also told the bank  'Prove it that you lent us the money'.

I hate banks, but at the end of the day if you borrow money from someone  / anyone,  it's your responsibility to pay it back and not by saying "You prove you lent it to me in the first place".

That's an interesting point. Have the bank actually suffered? I mean they didn't actually give any money to anyone - they created it out of other people's savings (at a ratio of about 1:9, rather than backing it up with gold or silver). There is a big movement in Britain at the moment about this exact premis - why should banks be allowed to create money, with no collateral to back it up? When they lend you 'money', they don't actually, it is created on a computer. So, when they try and get this 'money' back, many people are refusing on the basis that none was exchanged in the first place.

I'm no expert on this situation but there are many interesting videos out there of people writing their mortgages off (and credit cards and loans) due to this very reason. Ask the bank to prove that they gave you the money to buy the property. They won't be able to because they gave it to the developer/seller. It's an interesting idea and many people are working this out.

What planet are you from Fazarelli?

Just because the bank transferred the money electronically (CHAPS etc.) it is still exactly the same as you going into a branch and asking for your mortgage of say €100,000 to be given to you in notes of the realm. It was your option to accept the electronic transfer instead of asking for gold bars, coins, sheep etc. The reason for the electronic transfer is because:- Its cheaper, there is no chance of you being robbed as you leave the bank with your suitcase full of 'readies', there is a record of where the money is going etc.

The banks do not create money. All they do is borrow from one source and lend to another, i.e. you. A bank borrows up to the amount of the assets that it has and can not lend more than that. As stated earlier the bank is just a middleman who receives money in their left hand and lends it out from their right hand. When they lend you the money they take something which is more valuable than the loan they are giving out, that is if they have any sense, as collateral. Its the same as going to a pawn broker and asking for a loan. He will value what you offer as 'security' and then lend you money against that.

I feel certain that nobody held a gun to your head and said go to the bank and borrow money to buy this property. You did it on your own volition with, one hopes, full understanding that you were buying the property that you did not have the ready 'cash' for. As said previously if the situation was the other way round i.e. the property increased in value, then would the bank be entitled to that profit? I don't think so.

Just realise that you made a very bad decision and live with it.

What planet are you from Fazarelli?

Just because the bank transferred the money electronically (CHAPS etc.) it is still exactly the same as you going into a branch and asking for your mortgage of say €100,000 to be given to you in notes of the realm. It was your option to accept the electronic transfer instead of asking for gold bars, coins, sheep etc. The reason for the electronic transfer is because:- Its cheaper, there is no chance of you being robbed as you leave the bank with your suitcase full of 'readies', there is a record of where the money is going etc.

The banks do not create money. All they do is borrow from one source and lend to another, i.e. you. A bank borrows up to the amount of the assets that it has and can not lend more than that. As stated earlier the bank is just a middleman who receives money in their left hand and lends it out from their right hand. When they lend you the money they take something which is more valuable than the loan they are giving out, that is if they have any sense, as collateral. Its the same as going to a pawn broker and asking for a loan. He will value what you offer as 'security' and then lend you money against that.

I feel certain that nobody held a gun to your head and said go to the bank and borrow money to buy this property. You did it on your own volition with, one hopes, full understanding that you were buying the property that you did not have the ready 'cash' for. As said previously if the situation was the other way round i.e. the property increased in value, then would the bank be entitled to that profit? I don't think so.

Just realise that you made a very bad decision and live with it.

Ha! You seriously don't have a clue, on that planet of yours!

WOW! I can't believe the backlash over my criticism of the honest, trustworthy, war-mongering, good old banks. I mean, it's outrageous that I suggest that the banks have in any way tried to rip anyone off! C'mon guys, open your eyes to what's happening on this planet of ours!

There's so much ignorance in this post above (and each of the previous replies) that it boggles the mind.

Now, here's a fact that will blow the above bolded comments out the water:-

3% of the currency in the UK is created by the Treasury. That is, 3% of our money is in notes and coins, without interest applied to it.  The other 97% is created by private banks as debt with interest.

Try to prepare a response that relies on facts and not predetermined views perpetrated by the media or whoever next time, because you're way out of your depth talking about this.

Oh, and I'm sure pjb68 is very pleased that you've criticised him for making 'a very bad decision', when he was more than likely given assurances by people in the financial industry (probably the bank) that handing the property back was his best option.

Yes, the bank has suffered because if everyone did this then they would stop lending out money, a fact that has been tested and proved to almost breaking point over the past few years with people having trouble to get a house loan. 

Just because no 'Cash' money has changed hands on the house sale doesn't mean that money didn't get transferred from the banks account to yours, or the lenders account who you pay back the borrowed loan to.  

A bank is no more then a money shop, you pay into your account, they then lend it to someone else, for this service they give you a little something extra on your money, they charge the borrower a little something extra as well, which they keep...to lend out again and again.

How was money created before computers came along?  If no monies were exchanged how did you buy your car or house then?  Paper / computer / cheque or otherwise still real money in the true sense is exchanged.

A bank has to make a profit to lend money out, love them or hate them, it's still a business like all the others, don't hear anyone moaning when the bank lends them £200,000 to buy a house which they later sold for £300,000,  making £100,000 profit on perhaps a few monthly payments back to the bank.

A bank will close down a multi billion pound company if it pulls in a loan, perhaps some companies also told the bank  'Prove it that you lent us the money'.

I hate banks, but at the end of the day if you borrow money from someone  / anyone,  it's your responsibility to pay it back and not by saying "You prove you lent it to me in the first place".

Ah, so naive for someone of advanced years. C'mon Baz, the banking system isn't like the board game Monopoly you know? For pete's sake!

Put it this way:-

Let's say I receive a large windfall and I decide to start up a private bank. Let's say I have 100k to invest in it. Now, 9 people come into my bank (or credit union, it's up to you) over the next few weeks  and they want to borrow 100k each. The banking system as it stands will allow me to do exactly that. But I only have 100k, you say? It doesn't matter, and I don't need any other assets to off-set against the 900k i've just agreed to lend. I then receive the interest payments on this cash into my imaginary bank. This extra money allows me to lend 8 or 9 times that amount to other people and so on and so on. These borrowers will never see their 100k in their hands because no one deals in notes and coins except for small transactions. All that happens is that 'money' or debt in this case is transferred to another private bank, whom accept it onto their computer system as a credit. They, in turn, can lend 8 or 9 times that amount to other borrowers, ad infinitum. And that's how it works, in a nutshell. Obviously they make it much more complicated than that to hide the obvious fraud that is taking place. The fraud being that they are promising to give you money but they don't have enough money to give to every one, therefore it is fraudulent.

In 5 or 10 years we could be going down the PPI/pension mis-selling scandal/endowment mortgages/unfair bank charges route with this issue.

Thanks Fazarelli for letting me know i am of advanced years, i didnt know that.

Cant see where i compared the banking system and the lending of money to a game of Monopoly either.

If it's me that doesn't understand the whole banking system can i suggest that you deposit a large sum of fictious money into my factual bank account so i dont have to pay you back because it didnt exist in the first place, and because of my advanced years i might just forget about it anyway,  and then lets see how you feel about someone not paying the loan back.

I just wish i had plenty of outstanding loans etc so i could visit my bank manager...Remember what i said..I hate banks.....So i could tell him i aint paying you back so get stuffed the money didnt exist anyway....Of course that is if the battery on my electric cart thingy lasted that long anyway.

Whats my chances?

Dear Mr Fazarelli.

Keep thinking like you do and live by your thoughts and one day you will find yourself in deep trouble, it just isn't the way the world works.

i always feel sorry for people in the OPs predicament, let's face it we all jumped "on the band-wagon"

but some off us thought about the consquenses if things went wrong,  that's life.

PS Reading some of the posts on this forum makes my head shake from "side to side" so much i have neck ache, it really does make me feel sad and angry at the same time regarding some people actions and some off the comments that go with them.

Got me' tin hat on already

This message was last edited by CostaBlade on 15/08/2013.

Dear Mr Fazarelli.

Keep thinking like you do and live by your thoughts and one day you will find yourself in deep trouble, it just isn't the way the world works.

i always feel sorry for people in the OPs predicament, let's face it we all jumped "on the band-wagon"

but some off us thought about the consquenses if things went wrong,  that's life.

PS Reading some of the posts on this forum makes my head shake from "side to side" so much i have neck ache, it really does make me feel sad and angry at the same time regarding some people actions and some off the comments that go with them.

Got me' tin hat on already

Well good for you Costa that you were so well off that you could afford to lose your money. It's pretty big of you to come on here and brag about how you were better than everybody else and actually thought about what might go wrong. Don't patronise us with your Mills and Boon, eh?

Thanks Fazarelli for letting me know i am of advanced years, i didnt know that.

Cant see where i compared the banking system and the lending of money to a game of Monopoly either.

If it's me that doesn't understand the whole banking system can i suggest that you deposit a large sum of fictious money into my factual bank account so i dont have to pay you back because it didnt exist in the first place, and because of my advanced years i might just forget about it anyway,  and then lets see how you feel about someone not paying the loan back.

I just wish i had plenty of outstanding loans etc so i could visit my bank manager...Remember what i said..I hate banks.....So i could tell him i aint paying you back so get stuffed the money didnt exist anyway....Of course that is if the battery on my electric cart thingy lasted that long anyway.

Whats my chances?

You do have a pretty poor grasp of english, don't you baz? I didn't say you actually said it was like Monopoly, I said you inferred it was like a game of Monopoly by stating it like that of a 10 year old. But, of course, we're wasting our time trying to teach you this now, in your advanced years, as you think you know it all already.

Are you actually saying that you think old people are sufferers of Alzheimer's Disease? Pretty offensive if so.

If I was to hand you a fictitious sum of money into your factual (well noticed) bank account then you would have that sum of money in your bank account because I didn't create it out of nothing, like the banks do. It would actually be real, who'd have thought it?  But, if I paid a large sum of (fictitious, go on, i'll humour you) money into every bank account in the country, then that wouldn't exist in every case because all of the money doesn't exist for that to be possible.

Btw, Baz, if you did go into your bank and told them you weren't paying your loans off, there wouldn't be a thing they could do, except create a credit problem for you for a couple of years. They might sell the debt to a debt collector but they have no jurisdiction against you in any form. Once the debt is sold, your contract with the bank/credit company is cancelled.

Fazarelli

You are jumping to conclusions.

I (we) are not "rich" or "well off" we have a monthly budget that we have to work too,  nor am i bragging or patronising, that just isn't my style.

Having said that.  Both myself (ran my own small business) and my wife worked when we bought our apartment (not a million pound villa, just in case you were about to jump to another conclusion).

We thought long and hard about commiting to buying a property in another country, and the "what if" scenario.

We came to the conclusion that if my business was to fail (which it didn't) or my wife lost her job (which she did) then we could still afford our commitments (in the UK & Spain), now if my business had failed and she lost her job, then we would be "up the creek" but we were lucky that didn't happen. That's why i always have feelings for people that do fall on hard times.

Life hasn't always been "a bed of roses" for us, believe me we have had our "oh shit" moments and been lucky enough to get through them.

Things happen in life, you just have to work your way through them.

PS none of this stuff is helpful to the original poster, so my opologies to him/her.

Thanks for your answer Fazarelli you just proved beyond all doubt you really do know nothing about money or debt, as your earlier post said " i am no expert on this situation" now that we all understand that more fully we will get to make sense of your posts.

Love the way you try to twist a play on words from posters on here, shame it dont work out how you would like it to.

Sorry my grasp of English is not of your liking, but it's only the incoherent ramblings of a semi literate that I do have problems with...Like as in your ramblings thinking that no money exits in reality because you watched a video about it. 

And while your at it please do try to answer some of the items mentioned in my post, and other members posts instead of skirting around the issue's, with me, namely of advanced years, baffled still how you come to print that, but not surprised,  anyway if that was an attempt to insult then you will have to do much better then that.

Deffend yourself in the UK with the help of a Spanish Lawyer.

Are your assets in the UK free? Do they have charges on them?

Hi all can we please keep this thread civil and polite, there is no need to get personal and insulting please remeber the forum rules as we would rather not have to block the thread.

Fazarelli

You are jumping to conclusions.

I (we) are not "rich" or "well off" we have a monthly budget that we have to work too,  nor am i bragging or patronising, that just isn't my style.

Having said that.  Both myself (ran my own small business) and my wife worked when we bought our apartment (not a million pound villa, just in case you were about to jump to another conclusion).

We thought long and hard about commiting to buying a property in another country, and the "what if" scenario.

We came to the conclusion that if my business was to fail (which it didn't) or my wife lost her job (which she did) then we could still afford our commitments (in the UK & Spain), now if my business had failed and she lost her job, then we would be "up the creek" but we were lucky that didn't happen. That's why i always have feelings for people that do fall on hard times.

Life hasn't always been "a bed of roses" for us, believe me we have had our "oh shit" moments and been lucky enough to get through them.

Things happen in life, you just have to work your way through them.

PS none of this stuff is helpful to the original poster, so my opologies to him/her.

Hi Costa,

I did jump to conclusions because it seemed like you were being patronising in your statment about giving a thought for the consequences. It was a perfectly reasonable reaction to jump to this conclusion because it DID sound extremely patronising and condescending, and people will defend themselves or others if on the wrong end of these types of comments.

But hey, I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but just thought i'd put my point across too.

Anyway, the point I was making was relevant to the OP (and to anyone else with a mortgage) and his/her mortgage situation. The point being that there are certain loopholes in mortgage agreements with regard to hidden power of attorney clauses.

Yes, the bank has suffered because if everyone did this then they would stop lending out money, a fact that has been tested and proved to almost breaking point over the past few years with people having trouble to get a house loan. 

Just because no 'Cash' money has changed hands on the house sale doesn't mean that money didn't get transferred from the banks account to yours, or the lenders account who you pay back the borrowed loan to.  

A bank is no more then a money shop, you pay into your account, they then lend it to someone else, for this service they give you a little something extra on your money, they charge the borrower a little something extra as well, which they keep...to lend out again and again.

How was money created before computers came along?  If no monies were exchanged how did you buy your car or house then?  Paper / computer / cheque or otherwise still real money in the true sense is exchanged.

A bank has to make a profit to lend money out, love them or hate them, it's still a business like all the others, don't hear anyone moaning when the bank lends them £200,000 to buy a house which they later sold for £300,000,  making £100,000 profit on perhaps a few monthly payments back to the bank.

A bank will close down a multi billion pound company if it pulls in a loan, perhaps some companies also told the bank  'Prove it that you lent us the money'.

I hate banks, but at the end of the day if you borrow money from someone  / anyone,  it's your responsibility to pay it back and not by saying "You prove you lent it to me in the first place".

Just a couple of points Baz. First one:-

A bank is no more then a money shop, you pay into your account, they then lend it to someone else, for this service they give you a little something extra on your money, they charge the borrower a little something extra as well, which they keep...to lend out again and again.

Yes Baz, they do. As I said, a ten year old knows this. However, the crucial point you are missing (which is the point I was making when I referred to your ideas as monopoly banking), is that when a person deposits money into an account, the bank are then able to create upto 9 times this amount on a computer. Which they can lend to whoever else wants it. It's called Fractional Reserve Lending. You'd do well to read up on it, you'd certainly learn something.

The second point is:-

How was money created before computers came along?  If no monies were exchanged how did you buy your car or house then?  Paper / computer / cheque or otherwise still real money in the true sense is exchanged.

I think you are being a little obtuse here Baz. Paper was used - it's called accounting. The computer is just a convenient and much more efficient way of storing the information, as they can be linked easier and its instant.

C'mon Baz, you have a certain amount of money in your bank account (because you earned it or loaned it), ok? This money can then be exchanged for the object of your desires (the car, the house, the spanish holiday). This has got nothing to do with money that banks have created. What we're talking about here is the 3% of money that is real. If you want to you could go down to your bank and withdraw your life savings and sit there and count it. And so could the people you buy the car or holiday from.