How does a Community Work?

Roberto I cannot believe that,  I must send that to our President he will be so shocked,  or maybe not their was me panicking that the bank had not deducted our community charges, which has just been done. When I hear some of these stories I am so glad I have not had these problems.   Well thanks for imparting that info.   Pat

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Roberto, he can arrange to sue himself for the community fees then.

When we're in Spain next month we'll have the opportunity for once to attend a meeting, wow. Meetings have been arranged with no chance of us getting over to attend generally. We had two weeks notice of the first AGM. We missed it by three days as we'd had flights booked for months. This EGM has been called to rethink community rules, now we've recently obtained our habitation licences after two years.

We think it stems from the fact that an owner on our road has erected a carport/gazebo structure which contravenes our community rules. Trouble is the owner was a VP at one time so should be conversant with the rules & she asked the President if she & her husband could have this carport. The President asked their (resident) neighbours on one side if they minded & they said they'd agree as long as the sides were not put on as they'd lose their view down to the salt lake. So our President, a woman, agreed. That was in June when we were there so we saw it go up. However, a particular rule states that the President will instruct any owner to remove any structure, permanent or not, that is higher than the average family car & which is further forward of the front elevation of the property. It has s*d all to do with asking any owners or neighbours if they mind it. I had quite a heated conversation with our President about it as she was adamant that she could say yeah or nay on the subject.

A few days later, on the day we left ...  June 20th, she came to see us & said a number of other owners had complained about it (our President has a short memory as she informed me the carport contravened rule 13 which is what I'd pointed out to her with the rules in my hand three days previously ) & so the committee had written to the owners instructing them to not only remove the structure but also the high mesh fencing they'd put around their garden. (We hadn't complained, I'd tried only to point out to our President she was wrong to let it happen seeing as she's meant to keep us all on the straight & narrow ). Friends of ours sent us a photo last week & the structure's still up, as is the fencing.

We therefore think the EGM is going to suggest we legalise this carport amongst other things. There are many community rules on our community that are unique to us. There are five phases of houses same as those on our community but each phase has different rules. Some of ours are excellent, like no cars down our narrow private road except for loading/unloading as we all have drives & there's areas at the ends of the road if we don't want to bother using the drives. On other phases it's almost impossible to get down the road for parked cars & also impossible to get out of the drive.

We tried two years ago to get a rule amended to make our lives as non residents better & feel it was never put to every owner as we only had a copy of the proposed rules a couple of weeks before first AGM & had to agree or not to these. There wasn't time for us to propose an amendment then for the committee to send out to each of the owners of 54 properties. We have bided by each rule, unlike many, & so have resubmitted the proposed amendment again &, if it's not accepted, we'll go ahead anyway. It's a silly thing I won't go into here but suffice to say generally no one would be really aware. It's just doing things without hassle is a lot easier. There are nine detached houses on our side of the road with seven opposite plus the communal pool. There are three residents down our side, none on other. Owners rarely let their homes out. We believe some owners are planning to move over permanently at some time. Too many owners have flouted too many rules over the 29 months we've had our property. We are getting really annoyed with this so called community spirit.

Last time after being assured the proposed amendment would be private it not only was rejected but we were the butt of a neighbours jokes over it when she was drunk, which was a lot of the time. She also shouted that we were not interested in our community as we were never there for meetings & just wanted to reap the benefits. As my husband commented we pay our community fees on time unlike a few including the President at the time. This person was privvy to our proposed amendment as she was the girlfriend of our VP then & she'd seen the papers. Thankfully they sold up & left & I thought all my birthdays & Christmasses  had come at once as she made my life on the urb extremely uncomfortable.

Anyway we'll see what happens on September 12th. I'll let you know.

This message was last edited by morerosado on 8/24/2007.

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See provision 13.2 of the Horizontal Property Act: ( translated into English by Castillo Traductores)

2. The president shall be appointed from among the unit owners by election or, if this could not be

achieved, by rotation or by drawing lots. Acceptance shall be compulsory, although the unit owner

designated may apply to the court for his/her replacement within one month of taking office, invoking the

motives. The judge, following the procedure established in the last paragraph of section 17, shall issue an

order as he/she shall see fit, designating, where appropriate, the unit owner who shall replace the president

in office until such time as a new appointment is made within the term determined in the court decision.

The judge may be equally approached where, for any reason whatsoever, the general assembly found it

impossible to designate a president.

 

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Many interesting points raised in this forum but can I add a comment or two about the building of extra bits on the outside of your property. If you intend to build anything that changes the appearance/skyline of your property you need a 100% agreement with the community before you start work. If you don't have this you run the risk of a single owner complaining and asking a Judge to order you to take it all down. A president cannot give permission to carry out any action that requires a decision at an General Meeting - Presidents must essentially carry out the wishes of the community - the president/committee has no executive powers It is also very wise to ask if a building permit etc is required in case your pet project endangers an adjacent property. Probably unlikely in the case of a car port patio etc but who knows? This is straight out of the Horizontal Property Law and cannot be changed by a House Rule. I think - not too sure here - that a new house rule or a change to a house rule requires a unanimous vote at a general meeting Your administrator should advise you on all these points. As far as presidents appointed by drawing lots - the job of president is largely influenced by the work of the administrator - get a good one and the presidents job is straight-forward and rewarding. Beware of presidents who collect proxy votes to remain in office - and ask them why they wish to be a permanent president! - Hope this helps - RM


This message was last edited by rufusmarbella on 8/24/2007.

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Hi Rufus

In the case of our community we feel our President has caused us problems for deciding inaccurately  what is acceptable & not adhering to rules laid down. She should have consulted with our administrator over this carport.

We appreciate she has a difficult job at times (& no way do we want this job), is not paid for her President's role & is just another owner at the end of a day, but ,very unfortunately, her inappropriate actions have caused problems & she can't see it that way.

We are a community of 54 detached houses with only 12, I understand, occupied permanently. I personally believe a President should be a resident so we are very limited in who we vote for. Our current President said she would take over when our previous one of two years from us becoming a community stepped down. He was being verbally abused by some & both he & his wife were threatened with violence &, although some obviously considered that he lapped up the power & did things wrong, he really did a fantastic job getting the community started & we are sorry he decided to leave the role as we felt he was excellent.

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".....the job of president is largely influenced by the work of the administrator - get a good one and the presidents job is straight-forward and rewarding."

And therein lies the problem! How to find a decent administrator? If that were easy, then my job should certainly be straightforward. I've always maintained that the president should basically just be the representative of the other owners, the message carrier so to speak. The paid professional should be the one doing the dirty work. Straightforward, yes - rewarding?! Yeah, right!

"Beware of presidents who collect proxy votes to remain in office - and ask them why they wish to be a permanent president!"

Great advice! These people are certainly not to be trusted, probably drive big BMWs and work as estate agents!  

And as an afterthought: "The president shall be appointed .......................... by election or, if this could not be achieved, by rotation or by drawing lots. Acceptance shall be compulsory"

Wouldn't it be fun if that was how it worked when electing a new president of the USA? Or maybe that's already how it's done?

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A Presidente is not there to cause other people problems and he / she is not there to be a 'policeman' either.

A Presidente is the Legal representative of the Community. He / she is elected by the Community.....................but the Community should remember that they don't actually OWN the Presidente!!

The Presidente, as has already been said, acts on the decisions made at the Community's AGM, although he / she does have authority ( Horizontal Law ) to act without the AGM's permission if it is in the best interests of the Community or something which would endanger the Community should it not be acted on straight away. These decisions must then be ratified at the AGM.

Logically speaking, it would be irresponsible ( and stupid ) for a Presidente to act in a biased or a way of 'personal gain' ( without putting too fine a point on it ! ) because it is the Presidente NOT the Committee or the Administrator, who can be sued if any thing goes wrong.

Proxy votes are a problem....................not just because they can be used by a Presidente to corner the 'market' but they can also be used by a member of the Community who may wish their views to be persued ( NOT that I am saying any of the residents of our Urb would do that ! ).

This year we abandoned the usual proxy forms which really constituted an 'open' vote for whoever held them and sent out a Voting Form.........so that owners could vote how THEY wanted to. We did have a bit of a problem with wording and misinterpretation but Hey, it was the first time it had been done this way and will be fine tuned for next year......BUT at least everyone who bothered to submit their Voting Form got to vote the way THEY wanted to.

Enough now!! Off to have a vino tinto....cheers !!                  0r 2        

 

This message was last edited by Karensun on 8/25/2007.

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http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/horizontal-laws.pdf

 

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I have previously posted regarding our community charges which have been set at 650 euros per quarter.  I have just returned after 3 weeks at our house and whilst there I was able to meet around 6 owners.  We are all of the same opinion that our charges are high compared to surrounding developments and also none of us have paid as yet until we receive some answers.  We had an informal meeting with our president who is a resident to voice our concerns, what we wanted to know is how can contracts be given out for our development without any owners being aware of what they are and also to make sure we have value for money.  We agreed a propostion for our president to take to the administrators that we would pay half of our charge per quarter till things were sorted out, which was better than paying nothing.  Ideally what I would like to know is there anything that can be done about the contracts which since I have returned home I have been told we are stuck with them for 12 months, and also we can't do anything about the charges till next year.  If anyone can enlighten me I would be grateful

Dean

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Dean, sorry, I don't remember your previous post specifically, so apologies if I am going over old ground. At the initial meeting of your new community, a proposed budget would have been presented (presumably by the administrator), which all those present (and represented) would have been asked to vote on. A majority vote in favour would likely have carried it, although you would have to study the Horizontal Law carefully to establish exactly what proportion of the total quotas is needed legally for such issues. Click on the link in Maria's post below for the English version. have a look at Section 17. It's a bit confusing. Also look at Section 18, particularly part 2. Best of luck interpreting it all!

With regards to the existing contracts, I think it is the responsibility of the president, perhaps together with the assistance of the administrator, to appoint cleaners, gardeners, security services etc., to perform necessary functions as outlined in the original meeting. Obviously, the cost of each of these services should have been budgeted for within the overall budget that was approved at the meeting. If contracts have been entered into with clauses stating a minimum period of one year, then I guess that is legally binding? Furthermore, if any workers have been taken on as employees of the community, where the community pays their social security (as opposed to entering into a contract with a company or self employed individual) then you will find yourselves subject to employment law as well. And that, in Spain, heavily favours the employee, so if you want to get out of any such arrangement, you're basically stuffed.

If all this is too much of a worry to leave until the next AGM, you could try to get a meeting convened before then. (Section 16) Sorry if I've painted a gloomy picture, but I've just had a bad day in the Presidential office! Flooding garages and insubordinate, lazy-arsed gardeners etc.

Very best of luck to you.

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 See section 13 of the Horizontal Property Act : http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/horizontal-laws.pdf

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Rob, Dean posted in Community Charges & you also posted in the thread.

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Yeah, well, I can't remember everything, can I? It's the heat, you see.

Anyway, why didn't he continue posting in the same thread, eh? Just trying to confuse me, when it's all I can do to make a decision between staying in with the a/c on, or going down to the pool?

(The pool is my preferred option, but it means running the risk of getting collared by one of my "subjects" over some trivial irritating community issue! e.g. "why can't we have the roses over there, instead of over here?" Answer: "because the gardener is an insubordinate arrogant lazy a***hole who will be getting the bullet sooner than Martin Jol if he doesn't smarten his act up quickly, and by the way, would you like to be president next year????? Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to have a swim.")

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King Roberto and his subjects !!  and my answer !!             

Drastic, but it sorts out the Lilos !!

 

                                                                                                                           

This message was last edited by Karensun on 8/28/2007.

This message was last edited by Karensun on 8/28/2007.

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    Karen     Nice one !

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Sometimes a girl's got to do what a girls got to do!! Especially when she is a Presidente wife !!

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Disappointed that your image of me is that of a rather camp cow in a cape.  How's a guy to get any respect around here?

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 Hi Roberto, I really sympathise with you but I think you need to develop this selective hearing syndrome, sorry bit deaf today water in the ears.  Ear Plugs, or they need syringing. Roy's Mum was very good at it hearing what she wanted to hear so you would not fool me.  Pat

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Found a much better image !!

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Roberto

Cool down, I posted on this thread due to the fact the community charges thread wandered off onto something totally different and this seemed the most appropriate place for a bit of advice.  I have read section 13 of the horizontal act, but as a community can we say that we will only pay half the charges and what are the legal implications and are we bound to 12 month contracts to the administrator, security guards and gardeners etc  I would appreciate some help as our president is saying nothing can be done.

Dean

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