How does a Community Work?

That's more like it, rather like the Presidential cat actually, seen here on patrol near the pool. (I know you've been dying to see a piccie of him, Morerosado!)

 Dean, I mentioned previously Section 18 Part 2, because it basically says if you haven't paid up in full you can't speak out about anything you don't like. If the minutes of the meeting where all these contracts were "agreed" have already been inscripted, it may be difficult to legally reverse these decisions without another meeting etc. And as to the legality of the said contracts, and the ability to terminate them earlier than 1 year - I don't know. Spanish contract law would come into play, I suppose. Not my field. Sorry. Good luck.

It all depends on who has agreed to what.

If you have had an AGM and you were informed about this appropriately, then the proposals for the budget ( which should include the amount payable for Comm, Fees ) were voted on and accepted by the majority...................then you are stuck with it.

However, if all the above took place correctly, then you should have recieved a copy of the AGM minutes. You have 30 days to register your objection to anything in those minutes. You may not get whatever you object to overturned, but you will have registered your protest should it be necessary to use Law at a later date. If you recieved the minutes and did nothing, then again you are stuck with it.

Without an agreed ( by a majority at an AGM ) budget, the Presedent cannot spend any monies. You cannot spend what has not been agreed by the Community.

An ex Presidente of our urb. did this and he will be sentenced by the Spanish Courts on Sept 28 this year his action is not allowed under Spanish Law.

If you have big problems with your President etc., then the best thing you can do is call an EGM. You would have to have signature agreement from 25% of your Community to do this and it would be as well to have someone else in mind for Presidente, Administrator etc.

Do not just accept the situation as it is, someone has to be accountable and it will be up to your Community to act if they are displeased with what is happening.

"An ex Presidente of our urb. did this and he will be sentenced by the Spanish Courts on Sept 28 this year his action is not allowed under Spanish Law."

Probably he deserves it, but nevertheless, it's a bit scary to think that you can land yourself in seriously deep sh1t for doing a job that you didn't want, and that nobody else wanted to do either. It doesn't sit too comfortably with me, that as president you are legally responsible for the community, even though you have no specialist legal training or knowledge. For goodness sake, you don't even have to be able to understand a word of Spanish to find yourself lumbered with the role.

Karen, thanks for giving Dean a much better answer than mine. I'm sticking to my excuse of the heat, and happily hand over my crown to you! And you can't have him! He's too much of a fixture here, and all my people bow down to him and pay homage when he struts his stuff around the garden. He even pays little visits to neighbours, if they leave their doors open, which makes them feel very honoured. Oh, and Morerosado, forget fish, only fresh, thiny sliced jamon York will tempt him.

Roberto don't feel sorry for the ex presidente, he wandered off with a lot of other people's money that he had no authorisation to spend. He lied through his back teeth throughout the 3 months he was in 'power' and was abusive to lots of people.......nasty piece of work.

I'm sure that you would never be like that. As long as a Presidente is accountable and working in the best interests of the Community, then he / she will be ok.

I don't want any blooming crowns, thank you very much......I know I came here to retire !!

give it to someone else !!!!!!!

Again, a pink crown? What have people (or Smiley) been telling you?

Anyway, thanks for your words of encouragement. I think I'll fire the gardener tomorrow!

Roberto, you are really picky........................whats wrong with pink?

You better have this one instead !!           

Seriously tho, back to the thread..........................Would be interested to know how Dean is getting on with his problems and if things were sorted origionally according to the Horizontal Law or just according to Sod's Law.  Let us know please Dean !!

Hi Karen

I have read the minutes to the first community meeting and from what I can see, at the time there were only 6 owners present with the developer still holding 30+ properties out of 42.  The budgets were set and passed unanimously which I'm not sure how that could be with only 6 bonafide owners there.  Other owners I have spoke to either had no knowledge of the meeting or had about a days notice.  One thing I am still trying to find out is if the majority of owners feel we are being had can we say that we will only pay half the charge, or is it a case of tough and wait till the next agm.  The administrators are fully aware of the situation and they have said they will work to our budget but only after the first 12 months.

Dean 

Hi Dean

I have been reading your post and the replies with interest and whilst no way am I an authority on the subject you may have the same problems that we had when we formed our Community 4 years ago and the following may shed some light on the matter.

On our first A.G.M. which was attended by five owners, and the builder (who also owned the majority of the properties we were  appointed as President.  We of course, in our ignorance had bought on a development and never gave a thought to who pays and maintained the Communal area´s and who would run the whole urbanisaition on a daily basis.

We were "given" by the builder, an Administrator and all the other contractrors that we would need for the Communal area´s.  No mention was made of quotes etc, and we, as we could do no other at the time accepted this.  The minutes went out and within a very short time we realised, like you, that we were being ripped off.

It turned out that our very expensive Administrator who only spoke Spanish and charged the Community for a translater every week was not a legal Administrator at all but the cousin of the builder.  A similar story with the pool technican who was infact the builders brother!!

We tried very hard during the following year to rid ourselves of these people but found that we had, in our ignorance ,signed the yearly contracts and were legally bound by them.  The pool guy we kept until the following A.G.M. but the "Administrator"  we sacked by a 55% plus vote at an E.G.M. although we had to pay him (and the new Administrator) for the three months up to the end of his contract.

We then made the builder pay the Community charges on ALL of his properties and charged him 20% on top for late payment, a decsion that was passed at the A.G.M.   This extra 20% paid for items around the pool and also towards some much needed fencing.

Once we had the new contracts in place then of course the Community charge came down and has remained the same since.  I think that like us you will have to ride out the first year and just hope that there is some money in the kitty to start you with your second.  We ask all our owners to come forward with quotes or suggested Companies as it is their Community and we welcome such interest. 

By not paying your fees you are not only,  not allowed to vote at the next A.G.M. which looking at your posts I think you all need to do, but you risk the chance of your Community becoming bankrupt!, as all the bills still need to be paid even if you don´t agree with paying with them and even if there is no money in the pot.

Hopefully, this helps in some way and I am sure that there will be more help and advice from this excellent forum

Hi Dean, what happens at an AGM is that motions are passed with a majority of whoever is there at that given time plus any proxy voters. ( The developer may have excersised his right to vote for each of the unsold properties ).  Even if he did not do this.........the majority would have been from the 6 or so present.  When the minutes are sent out, you all have 30 days to object to anything. ( of course, no one tells you this before hand ).

I cannot remember the exact timing for notice about an AGM, but offically the notice only has to be sent out within Spain ( you are supposed to have a fiscal address in Spain ) However we always send notice out to everyone whatever their address ( whatever is registered at the Admin office ). Also a notice re. the AGM should have been displayed prominently on the urb. but this only has to be up 3 days for it to be legal.

It sounds to me that nothing illegal has happened.

BUT, the way it has all been handled leaves much to be desired !! I think you will be stuck with this until the next AGM. Treat it as a harsh learning curve and prepare yourselves in a better way for next year.

If you do not pay your fees, you will not be able to vote at the next AGM.......................you will be able to speak but not to vote, so you will have no opportunity to change things.

You could, of course, get 25% of the Community to sign and have an EGM, but as the developer holds so many properties, it is probably a non starter.

It may be a good idea to keep track of the spending during this year so you know where your money has gone, don't leave it till the AGM when the expenditure will be published, cos it's to late to do much about it then.

You and any other owner have the right to see the Community accounts at any time. This is law. Of course, an administrater could make this difficult, but most would have no reason to.

You must now have a Presidente. Can you talk to this person? He / she will not be able to alter anything that was voted on and agreed at the AGM, but it is easier to live with if you are on talking terms with the Presidente and the administrator.

Good luck, keep us in touch................but my advice would be to bite the bullet.........pay up...............keep a close eye on things and prepare for the next AGM.

Good post, Karen. You teach me about communities & meetings etc & I'll teach you about buckets

Don't mean to appear flippant but communities can be so challenging at times. Ours is in a bit of a mess with too many flouting rules so it's an EGM on 12th September as some owners are wanting some rules deleted or amended to take into consideration what they want, some good may come out of it. There are some very strong personalities on our community. They do as they please regardless & it's ok to say sue them but it costs the community & these owners know it's unlikely to be taken further. Sad to say we are fast taking the view that if rules are flouted so easily without anything happening we may as well do as we want which is nothing really, just against community rules as they stand. Seeing as we were invited to propose amendments to any rule we have done in the hope the silly rule's changed to be more flexible & considerate.

Thanks for that Morerosado.

Community Rules are a difficult thing. Ours were proposed and agreed at AGM but, even so there are some owners who obviously ignore them!!

None of our rules are too severe in my opinion and are for the benifit of the whole Community and we have had two amended at our last AGM.

Rules are ok, but who will police them? The pool rules are the bane of my life....................and these are Valencian Law, not our Community Law, ie the lilo thing. The rule is 'no inflateables', except swimming aids. However, it seems that some people do not know what an inflateable is and that the only real swimming aid are armbands and those life jacket things. Rubber rings and spaghetti thingys are NOT ( spoken by a qualified swimming teacher ! ) They do not understand the dangers of inflateables in small pools or the annoyance if no one else can use the pool cos there are 3 or 4 lilos in it.

Glass objects are also a problem in the 'silly ' season, even when we explain that glass cuts and blood in the pool means closure and emptying of the pool and it will not be refilled till December AND it will cost a fortune !!

I think the big thing necessary for Community living is RESPECT, unfortunately this is sometimes in short supply.

Thanks all for the info.  I am very friendly with president and his wife who have moved from the UK to live in Spain, but I suspect when he was voted as president due to the fact he was going to be resident he didn't realise the full implications of it.  Then obviously the owners who were present at the meeting were asked to vote on the budget without having much chance to scrutinise the figures.  The president himself has said he was expecting it to be half of what was announced and up to now seems determined to get it to that.  The developer as of now only holds approx 6 units out of the 42 so if we were to call an EGM I don't  think their votes would affect much now.  On another point I do not know if the developer has contributed towards the community costs for the units they have held, if they are liable to some charge then I could inform the president and try set the wheels in motion to recoup some the money if they haven't paid. 

Keep the info coming, its very useful when you are trying to understand the system and how it works.

Dean

Dean, every owner is liable for the Community Fees if they have been agreed at the AGM. Getting them is a different matter !!

Your Presidente needs to get some good advice from somewhere, but the fact remains, that if the budget was agreed at the AGM, then that is what it is...................it is a legal entity and unless your Community Fees are paid up to date you cannot vote in an AGM or EGM..............that is the Horizontal Law.

Not understanding what it was all about, ie proceedure or not having time to assess the budget would cut no ice in Spanish Law. The mere fact that it was agreed at an AGM is enough. The AGM is the most important meeting for the Community and whatever is decided and agreed on there is Law, unless you can call an EGM and change things. If you attempt this you will need to make sure you have a replacement for the Administrator ( if you need one ) and quotes for all the other general work that has to be done ie pool cleaning. You will almost certainly have to pay anyone with whom you have a years contract, whether you remove them or not. Just out of interest, who authorised these contracts? Your Presidente is the one who should have signed the contracts.....no one else has the authority to act for the Community...............certainly not the Administrator who should work from the Presidente's instruction.............not off his / her own bat !!

As I said before, ( I don't know how long ago you recieved your AGM minutes ) you have the right to register complaints, disagreement about the minutes within 30 days. You also can register stuff up to a year later.but I can't remember what. If I were you I would record everything I was unhappy about and give a copy to the Presidente and the Administrator and keep a copy yourself.

Let us know how you get on please, we are a Community of 184 apartments and our fees are 300E each year and have been the same for 3 years. The apartments were built 4 / 5 years ago and my Hubby has been Presidente for 3 years or so and believe me, it has been a steep learning curve !! So will help if we can.

Hi Karen

I have registered my discontent with the president who passed this on to the administrator so they are aware of owners feelings.  The agm was on 18th April where the budget was set and the contracts were signed for by the president, but I'm almost certain the contracts were in place with no input from the president.  The reason I say this is because the president and his wife didn't move out there till March and he wasn't voted to be president till the agm when the contracts and budget were presented.  My assumption is that after being voted president he was presented with all the documentation to sign and duly obliged not really understanding what he was doing and probably not realising the implications regarding the legal side of matters.  It seems that this happens to many new communities at the beginning, until the owners realise and then get acquainted with how things work, which from what I have read is usually a year down the line.

Dean

I think you're right Dean, trouble is..............it doesn't alter the legality of it under Spanish Law.......and I think you have as much chance of changing things this year as winning the lotto!

An EGM could change the administrator and other amenities but it will not change the fact that the contracts were signed by your Presidente possibly for the year.

Not directly his fault, but I'm afraid under Spanish Law, he is the Legal representative of the Community and the buck stops there.....................and..................unless he dies, ceases to be an owner on the urb. or someone else is voted as Presidente he is stuck with it.

Did I tell you that I'm origionally from Sheffield ?

"......It seems that this happens to many new communities at the beginning, until the owners realise and then get acquainted with how things work, which from what I have read is usually a year down the line."

That's the nail on the head right there Dean. As Morerosado said, great thread, because the more people who read stuff like this before the first meeting of a new community is convened, the better. This is what EOS is all about after all.

Our community is also about 4 years old. Our first president was herded into office without really wanting the job (surprise!) but through no fault of his own was obviously not fully conversant with the workings of a community and the kind of problems that can arise. And he's Spanish! He did his best to sort out the inevitable teething problems, including appointing a new administrator (i.e. not the one appointed by the developer, which of course was a sister company). The new administrator set up contracts on his behalf, and believing the administrator to be acting in our best interest (which is what he gets paid for, surely?), he duley signed whatever he was asked to. I would probably have done likewise. As a complete newcomer to the whole system, and especially in a foreign country, one tends to rely heavily on professional help, which is why it disturbs me greatly that the president is legally liable for all community actions. When the sh1t hits the proverbial fan, the administrator will no doubt walk away smelling of roses.

When I inherited the role of president a couple of years ago, it quickly became apparent that all was not exactly as it should be. No really major problems, but as an example, I discovered that the previous president had  (knowingly or otherwise) employed our part-time cleaner on a contract, and we were paying her social security, as opposed to her working "autonomo", or self employed. At the AGM, it had been unanimously decided that she was crap at her job and should go. But it was left to me to discover afterwards that it's not that simple to get rid of employees. Happily, we found an alternative solution (my Better Half re-trained her, and she is still with us and everyone is happy with her work!) but I mention it because it's an example of the kind of thing that newly elected presidents are usually unaware of, and can so easily be misguided by administrators, only to find themselves "legally" responsible for a bad situation.  

Karen's advice and info so far has been spot on (as usual!) and there's nothing else for me to add really. Dean, best of luck with your community, and keep us posted. This is a very important thread for people just completing on new properties.