A host of questions

Even professionals give conflicting advice-that's the trouble.

The situation with Murcia IHT should be causing some concern for people living there.

I still don't understand why lack of paperwork on your property caused a delay in you registering for tax.It doesn't for others.You could reclaim overpaid tax later.Perhaps you have have had inaccurate advice!

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Floella, the paperwork on one’s home has no bearing.  Even those who might live here in a tent automatically become tax resident as dictated by the rules.

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Totally correct elaineG however even if living in a tent to send off a tax form, even in UK, one needs an address.
Do we agree? Or not?

Have in front of me my Ministerio de Economia y Haciendo .
On the right are our names and NIF number and WHERE on the left the address would normally be is the same 13 figure number that is on my IBI bill and on the very last page of the forms , at the very bottom,is the name of my Diputacion.
Therefore I must presume that the number relates to my residential address......without which one CANNOT submit a tax return anywhere in the world.

Our house was legally built on urban land but without a previous construction on it.

Our local Ayuntamiento , for whatever reason, took 4 years to issue us a number, although we had a postal address for all other purposes, during which time we could do nothing but wait....impatiently..I might add.
So certainly not given any bad or conflicting advice ,Camposol and during this time all other rules and regs as required locally or by Madrid were adhered to.

Obviously it is different for those who buy on purpose built urbanisations or in already registered houses.

But as I have so often previously stated out here one size doesn't fit all.

If in the future the Spanish tax office feel we have acted illegally in anyway we are sure they will contact us.

Hopefully this explanation, not an excuse, is now clear to you both the reason why we were unable to adhere to 183 day ruling and YES, to do things properly here, one does need lots of "bits" of paper.

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Floella,   The number to which you refer is probably the cadastral number of the property you own and which you gave as your corres address, or they chose as you did not give an alternative.

There is no excuse, acceptable to Hacienda,  for not making a tax return if one is Tax resident.  And even with all the prevaricating anyone might invent, after being in Spain 183 days in total in any year one is tax resident.  

Most are probably tax resident from their first day if they move to live in Spain

For correspondence from Hacienda, the address can be where you live in Spain, or own a property, or a friends address, or your fiscal representative,  etc.     My son’s address is not his apartment but my address.  He is a non resident property owner and we do not want any corres to go missing..

 

This message was last edited by johnzx on 22/09/2013.

This message was last edited by johnzx on 22/09/2013.

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I hope, having read all the posts, that  you finally  concede there was no barrier to you filing tax returns.just because you didn't have an official address; there was no reason why you couldn't have a post box or "care of"  or temporary address.

I am surprised that your advisors didn't give correct advice on your tax returns

The tax office  probably wont contact you-it will only come to light if you sell or deal with IHT, or perhaps a jobsworth might pick your name at random and scrutinise it-not very likely.

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Oh my goodness guys, you do make me laugh.

Obviously neither of you read my post correctly because I wrote we HAD a postal address for all other purposes , and this from the moment the house was constructed. In fact, until last year, the post was actually delivered directly to our house . Now we have localised panels and buzons which is more cost efficient manpower wise.

However in my Diputacion, and maybe yours..neither of you having been bothered to say.. it is only this 13 figure number that is on our tax return.
Why?
I have no idea, unless it is for building costs of the property used to assess wealth tax.
But obviously neither has anyone else otherwise you wouldn't keep saying I was making excuses which could be inferred as my telling porkies. Which I am not.

However tomorrow I shall ask my aesoria and post the answer.

Not holding my breath that it will be believed though as the message comes across very clearly that the Spanish professionals are totally incompetent and only the Brits know all the rules and regulations.

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As long as you had an NIE number, that is the only number that matters.Lack of a number on your paperwork cannot be a reason why you were unable to pay your income tax for 4 years, simple as that! As Elaine G said, you could live in a tent and be tax resident.

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NIF number for foreigners ,NIE for Spanish nationals will not necessarily show the same address as where one has later become a tax resident.

When one goes down the route we did, a foreigner buying land and building a house, one first needs a number.
And as our lawyer and temporary accommodation was in Andalucia that is where all the documation was originally initiated.
Once our house was built ,in Murcia, the hacienda needed our permanent address which in this case is a 13 digit number.

Please tell. What is on your tax form. Would love to know.

We are the only people we know who did this as most buy on urbanisations or existing properties so we unfortunately incur problems that most of you are unaware exist. But they do because life isnt as it is lived in UK.

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Floella 

                On the right are our names and NIF number and WHERE on the left the address would normally be is the same 13 figure number that is on my IBI bill

 

.However,  searching on the internet, this might refer to that number:-

En todos estos documentos figura en la parte superior derecha el Número de Justificante que sirve para identificar la autoliquidación

That is:- 

 In all these documents contained at top right is the receipt number used to identify the autoliquidación.

That is a 13 digit number. 

 

I do have such numbers on my returns and my son's,  but the number appears to change on each document. 

I suspect it is a unique reference number that applies only to the document in question,  to permit the computer program to proceed with the automatic calculations.  In which case has nothing to do with one's address, or even anything else other than that particular unique form.

 

Hope this helps

 

This message was last edited by elaineG on 22/09/2013.

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Thanks elaineG,

Without doubt this has raised an interesting issue and one I hopeful will be fully conversant as to the whys and wherefores with tomorrow.

Have only one set of forms as wealth tax for us never will be an issue......unless we win the euro millions..just know that this number is the same as is on all our IBI bills.

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Floella,   The NIE is the ID for non Spaniards,   ’Numero de Identificación de Extranjeros’. DNI is ID number for Spaniards.

 If one applies for an NIE,  as they do not live in Spain but want to buy a property etc. the number issued is also known as the NIF.

If one becomes resident and registers on the EU Citizen Register,  the number issued is the NIE, or if they already have one, the NIE on the Registration Certificate remains the same.  That number is your  unique identity number forever, no matter where in Spain you live.

Have only one set of forms as wealth tax for us never will be an issue......unless we win the euro millions.

Or unless they change the law back to what it was, i.e.  total assets of just over 150,000 euros, including one’s property, bank accounts, savings, car, boat, clothes, works of art,  etc. (it was 25,000,000 ptas)

Incidentally, I still do not understand if you are making a tax return as a Resident or non resident property owner. The comment re Patrimonio  (wealth tax) does not clarify that, as both groups are liable to that tax if their assets are large enough.

This message was last edited by johnzx on 22/09/2013.

This message was last edited by johnzx on 22/09/2013.

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When I queried why NIF on the hacienda form instead of NIE it was explained it was because I was a foreigner.
However will re raise this point tomorrow.
Maybe I misunderstood ?????? but have never misunderstood it is a number that follows one for life here.

Thought I had made it clear we are residents in Spain and so naturally on the register.

Even if the law changed which I doubt very much it wouldn't be more than a 3 figure sum......oh to have a boat or works of art.

Looks like rain......must get the washing in.....hasta luego

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From Government web page  U(see below for English) 

DNI

El DNI únicamente se tramita y expide en España, en las Comisarías de Policía Nacional.

Si es residente en la demarcación deberá solicitar en el Consulado General, previamente a los trámites en España, un certificado de residencia para DNI (tiene una validez de 3 meses desde el día de su expedición).

 Si fuera su primer DNI y hubiera nacido en esta demarcación, deberá solicitar también previamente una partida literal de nacimiento expedida para DNI (tiene una validez de 6 meses desde su expedición) al servicio de RC del Consulado.

 Número de identificación fiscal para españoles residentes en el extranjero (NIF)

Los españoles residentes en el extranjero que no dispongan de D.N.I. en el que figure una letra al final del número de identidad, pueden solicitar un Número de Identificación Fiscal directamente a la Agencia Tributaria, o bien hacerlo a través del Consulado, en cuyo caso deberán aportar:

el Modelo 030, debidamente cumplimentado y firmado.

Original y fotocopia del pasaporte o D.N.I. antiguo.

Original y fotocopia del permiso de residencia marroquí en vigor.

La tasa correspondiente se abonará en metálico en el momento de la solicitud.

 

La solicitud de NIF será remitida a la Agencia Tributaria y en el plazo de un mes aproximadamente los interesados recibirán el documento acreditativo del Número de Identificación Fiscal por correo en su domicilio.

NIE

Para la obtención de un NIE, el interesado puede solicitarlo directamente a la Dirección General de la Policía, o hacerlo a través del Consulado. En este último caso deberá acudir al Consulado General, personalmente o mediante representante debidamente acreditado (Horarios):

con original y fotocopia del pasaporte en vigor

documento acreditativo de residencia en la demarcación

formulario de solicitud EX15 debidamente rellenado y firmado

La tasa correspondiente se abonará en metálico en el momento de la solicitud.

Una vez asignado el NIE por la Comisaría General de Extranjería y Fronteras, el Consulado General se pondrá en contacto con el interesado para entregarle la correspondiente certificación.

 

 

Quick Translation:- DNI

The ID card is only processed and issued in Spain, in national police stations.

If you are a resident in the district shall request in the Consulate General, previously to the proceedings in Spain, a certificate of residence for DNI (is valid for 3 months from the day of issue).

If it was your first ID and I was born in this district, must request a literal birth certificate issued for DNI also previously (is valid for 6 months from the date issued) in the service of RC of the Consulate.

Tax identification number for Spanish nationals living abroad (MFRS)

Spanish nationals living abroad do not have ID card showing a letter at the end of the identity number, can request a tax identification number directly to the Inland Revenue, either through the Consulate, in which case it must provide:

the model 030, duly completed and signed.

Original and photocopy of the passport or identity card old.

Original and photocopy of Moroccan residence into force.

The corresponding fee shall be paid in cash at the time of the request.

The NIF request will be forwarded to the tax agency and within a month about stakeholders will receive proof of tax identification number by mail at his home.

NIE     To obtain an NIE, the interested party can request it directly from the General Directorate of police, or do so through the Consulate. In the latter case, it should go to the Consulate General, personally or by representative duly accredited (hours):

original and photocopy of the Passport

proof of residency in the district

EX15 duly filled in and signed application form

The corresponding fee shall be paid in cash at the time of the request.

Once assigned the NIE by the Commissioner General of immigration and borders, the Consulate General will contact the applicant to give the corresponding certification.

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Spoke with my aesoria and here are the answers to my questions.

Q. Can one send off a tax form without the number just an address?
A. Yes, but as the catastral number is more Important than ones address you will be required to Inform them of it.

( must admit on page 2 of the form is my address !!!! and a much longer number than the one I originally thought was my catastral number)

They thought probable reason behind first aesoria not remitting tax form without the number was because included building costs ,which were permitted against tax thus resulting in a nil balance, might cause a problem.
With hindesight having to wait for 4 years on an ongoing project to get ..it might well have done.....

Q. What is the difference between NIF and NIE ? Because have noticed all official forms request the former.
A. No difference . The prefix letter before the number is the important issue which denotes the person is not Spanish national.

Q. Are there any advantages to being a fiscal resident here.
A. None really.

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Q. Are there any advantages to being a fiscal resident here.

 

To my mind that seems an odd question, as what you do dictates whether to are fiscal (tax) resident or not..

So it would seem to depend on what lifestyle you want.

If you chose to live, make your home,  in Spain you will be Tax Resident.

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I forgot to put...in relation to selling a property or IHT...and the only difference appeared to be one has 5 years to re- invest money , for fiscal resident , before possibly paying tax on the profit from the sale.
But then again have heard this is age related .

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If one is  resident (so automatically must also be tax resident) then if one has lived in a property for a minimum of three years when they are at least 65,  there no capital gains tax to pay when  they  sell.

 

I do not believe tax residency affects IHT as the tax is on the inheritor.    If they are tax resident I believe there is an advantage if not then the tax free allowance is just less than 16,000 euros per person.  

 

A resident has two years in which they can  to roll over any taxable capital gain, not five.

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floella-you cannot chose whether you are tax resident here or not, as ElaineG says, if you live here more than 183 days, you are.

Your advisors seem to have made heavy weather of your tax affairs, when, as several of us have already said, you could have  made your tax declaration anyway. After all someone renting in Spain permanently would have had to pay without all the palaver you described.

Advantages to being a fiscal resident:

3%  of the proceed from the house sale  wont be retained by the tax office if you sell your property

If you are lucky enough to live in a region which hasn't abolished its regional tax allowance yet, like Murcia, then you will have the regional allowance as well as the measly state allowance

You won't have to pay CGT if over 65, resident and have lived in ythe property for  3 years. I don't think this concession is available to non fiscal residents?

So, all in all, definitely worth being legal here, isn't it?

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I don't want to rain on your parade Campsol. but unless you are under 21 :) all regional allowances for IHT were abolished by Murcia on the 11th July 2013, unless you're referring to something else ?

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You haven't read my post properly, Kathyslad!
 

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