More no news about Corvera and Paramount

Judging by the post from inspectahome he is stating that there is no difference between AENA the STATE owned airport authority and Corvera which is a PRIVATE airport. Why should the tax payers of Murcia have to pay one cent towards a private and hopefully profitable airport? It seems that the investors who have put up their money are on to a win win situation.  IF Corvera opens and is profitable then the investors will get their profit. If as it seems the airport is not used then the investors have already got their money from the guarantee from Murcia region.

It is interesting the interpretation from inspectorhome on the prices for flights from ALC and MJV. He states that MJV are over twice the price by the same operator as those from ALC. Well BY RANDOM I selected 2 weeks, one before Xmas and one in January both by Ryanair to Stansted. In one week all the flights were under €5 more expensive from MJV and the other week they were €5 cheaper. This means that the basic discounted price by Ryanair for a flight on the same day to the same airport is about the same. The difference is that from MJV on the day he was looking at, all the big discounted flights had been sold so the next higher priced seats were all that was left.

The main reason as to why there are so few flights from MJV in the winter is solely because the airlines do not think there are enough bums to go on their seats to fill them. It has very little to do with which airport any of the airlines use it is solely done on an economic projection. If what inspectarhome was saying was correct then why are both Ryanair and easyJet still using MJV in the winter at all? Also why are Ryanair offering flights to Stansted from both airports and easyJet offering flights to Gatwick? The reason is purely commercial by them which means that they feel they can fill their planes with passengers. The other 'summer' routes are not run during the winter because the airlines do not feel they can fill the seats and that they are using the planes to go to winter destinations.

On the commercial side, MJV is just about 'profitable' at the moment if you remove the costs of the upgrade they have recently done. How can a new airport with all the state of the art facilities compete on price when they have debts vastly in excess of what MJV have?  As I have stated in other forums, if Corvera were serious about hitting the ground running why did they not attempt to get contracts signed from main airlines when Alicante was having their disputes over the last 2 or so years? Corvera does not have the reserves that AENA have and if AENA have any business accumen at all, all they need to do is undercut whatever prices Corvera offer for, say, 2 or 3 years and then Corvera will just go bust. The few million euros this would cost would be a very good long term investment for AENA.

To sum up why are wwe all getting in such a mess over a PRIVATE airport that thinks it can just ask a State owned airport to just shut down and walk away. There is no logic in this whatsoever. The only answer I can see is for AENA to take over Corvera for no cost and not pay any investor a single cent and also for the taxpayers of Murcia to get back their money.

The story here seems to cahnge by each post and I would urge people to do their own investigaton to see how AEAN incentivise airlines to fly into Alicante which can be seen on theor own website and 6 month report

If as stated the availability out of Murcia isn't there with seats then surely that tells people something and the dayes that I was using as examples were the middle of December and April 2015 but to get a real comparison you have to look at the return and outward fares, return Murcia €237, Alicante same date range €83, because it is in that leg where landing fees are applied

What people seem to ignore is my information about promoting and growing the market, routes and opportunities for the area, why would AENA do this when they have plenty of capacity at Alicante, their BRANDED tourist airport

I do not believe that there isn't the demand from places like Manchester, Liverpool or Dublin for flights into this region and that the flights are engineered

Again according to published information MJV isn't profitable at the moment and it may be able to opeate at a lower cost because it will not be bound by the government staffing payment agreements and therefore compete for routes

You cannot sign an agreement with an airline if you don't have a licence to operate, aren't most of the UK airports moving to PRIVATE ownership because of issues

Our friend inspectarhome is not trying to make 2+2= 5. I have just looked, at random, for flights on Ryanair from both MJV and Alicante. On the random dates I used, leaving here on 8 December and returning on 12 December the TOTAL published costs for the return are................Alicante €156.98 and from MJV they are €166.98. If one factors in the extra fuel in your car then to all intents and purposes the costs are about the same. I would suggest that the difference in prices has nothing whatsoever to do with landing fees but solely the takeup of seats on that particular flight.

All this goes to show what I said on my first posting in this section was that two people can look at the same information and come up with 2 completely different conclusions.

The bottom line is no matter what we all say on here, we have no control over what happens and whatever will be will be. Although the different opinions expressed here are very interesting.

possibly one reason for the lack of flights into mjv is that the majority of passengers are home owners in the region rarther than tourists and as such tend to use there properties in the summer months .... alicante also tends to service the northern costa blanca as well a much more established tourist area ... as a business person myself i would agree with steones comments corvera was built as a speculative business venture by businessmen why should the local tax payer pick up the bill for bad private business decisions ... at the end of the day the airlines will only operate to profitable destinations and it would appear that there is simply not enough demand in the winter months ... to quote "i have been told there is viable new business and routes available " source please ?   .. that would have to be an awfull lot of new business to make corvera airport into a profitable venture ... the region is largly geared up for tourists renting on local resorts .... i would suggest that to generate the numbers required you would have to look at the mass tourism market and compete with cut price all inclusive deals which i dont believe murcia even has the number of hotels to accomadate that ?

Inspectahome I am confused. In an earlier post you say you can get a bus from Alicante airport to most places in Murcia for less than €7. I was therefore going to ask you to enlighten me as I have looked before about buses to St Javier, Roldan or Balsicas and I couldn't find any routes beyond Torrevieja without having to make many changes and taking longer than it took to fly from the UK, thus making it impractical. Also. the most practical option for me a, train from Alicante to Torre Pacheco was only available 2 or 3 times a day and did not marry up with my flight times.

But, in a later post you seem to contradict this by saying there is a limited choice of buses from Alicante.

Perhaps you could clarify so I know whether or not I need to do more research.

http://www.latbus.com/To get the buses you are actually looking at the wrong route because you first have tio get the bus to the main bus station in Murcia City and then a bus from there to the places in Murcia

The buses run every hour, journey time is 1 hour  and I believe that the fare is actually around €7 but drops for a return journey

You then can get a Latbus form the City to your area but I am not sure if they run to Roldan

Just in case the news hasn't fully broken today the airport ha taken a majot step backwards, as reported in the Spanish press when the minster who has been driving the project has resigned on the basis that they are now talking about going back out to tender for another operator and that AENA are very much in the frame to operate the airport, maybe based on the cloosure of MJV

By all accounts the main minister changed his mind about the openning plans, during the meeting in Madrid,, this could only happen in Spain, the current operators are today still pushing on with the testing and certification

http://murciatoday.com/back-to-the-drawing-board-for-corvera-airport-as-minister-resigns_23679-a.html#.VHZGtUekqrU

As you say, only in Spain.

If as the headline states it is going back to the drawing board why can't we postulate the future here. To have a good discussion we need to forget personal reasons for opening or not opening Corvera. We can look at the advantages and disadvantages and also the facts as they stand today. As I see it the situation is as follows:-

1. There is a big international airport that is not running at anything like capacity in Alicante which is, give or take, 30 mins. drive from Corvera.

2. There is a secondary airport about 1 hours drive from Alicante and give or take 30 mins. drive from Corvera, namely MJV. This airport is run partly by the military and partly by AENA. It is not promoted by AENA but offers the advantages of a small airport, namely quick throughput of passengers without miles and miles of walkways to get to and from the aeroplane etc.

3. Both airports are within 5 mins. of the motorway system.

4. Both are 'on the coast' which is where between 80% and 90% of their passengers wish to go.

5. Both airports are run by the State airport authority and therefore have different profit objectives than a private airport with a massive loan to repay.

Lets look at the reasons for having a new airport within the 'catchment' area of these 2 existing sites

1. It is nearer the capital of the region!

2. It is state of the art (at the moment!)

3. It will be nearer the proposed Paramount theme park if and when it is built and opened. As a matter of interest the 3 major theme parks run by Disney (Paris, Florida and Los Angeles) all are well over 60 mins. drive from the nearest airport.

4. It will ease the 'congestion' at both of the existing airports should there be a massive increase in passengers in the regions.

5. It will be more prestigious for the region of Murcia

I hope other posters will give good reasons for this additional airport that are not personal reasons.

When Corvera was on the drawing board there was no mention of closing MJV as it would only take the 'smaller' aeroplanes and Corvera would attempt to attract the larger 'planes and the Intercontinental flights. The problem is that for the vast majority of people in Europe let alone the rest of the world they have not heard of Murcia so why would they want to fly there without a massive promotion and advertising which would cost far more than the building of the airport. Apart from the politicians who cares exactly where one lands so long as one can reach their final destination. As an example look at London. There are 5 major 'London' airports of which only 1 is actually in London and that is London City Airport. Even Heathrow, which is one of the worlds busiest airports is not actually in London yet nobody says that it should be within London for 'prestige' reasons which is what Murcia wanted.

On purely business reasoning why would anyone want to pay to takeover Corvera with the massive debts that will obviously come with it for a limited term concession to operate it. In the article mentioned in murciatoday they suggested that AENA might be interested in taking over the airport. My question is WHY? They already own and operate a successful airport about 30 mins. drive away and have a secondary airport again 30 mins. drive away. As has been mentioned on here, AENA have 'pumped' €600million into Alicante so why would they 'invest' money into Corvera which will take some of their business away from Alc.?

I expect to be shot down for some of the points raised but can we please have a sensible discussion on here and hopefully still remain friends afterwards. After all no matter what we say it will have no influence on the final outcome.

I disagree with very little of the information in this well worded post but I would go further and say that actually, based on the Spring and Summer schedule already published that there is no real point of operating MJV

I would diagree with the comments regaring the location nd where people travel to, there are many benefits of the central location and there must be demand for people travelling into the city of Murcia, based on the fact that they run buses every hour between Alicante airport and Murcia City

An additional thing to add to the Corvera arguement is that it has a much longer runway, specifically built to handle much larger aircraft as Alicante is 2598m and Murcia is shorter 2320m where Corvera is over 3000m long. The larger plans required for international operations requires for take off, a 3Km runway, depending on operational weights

I understand that it is difficult to increase the runway sizes, especially at Alicante where they are restricted by the motorway an N332

If perhaps there was an airport that could accomodate the larger planes which can more easily travel larger distances and achieve the econmoy of scale Murcia could become more interesting for international travellors

When this initally became a problem the roumours were always that AENA would in effcet be given Corvera, perhaos now we are back to step 1

II may be wrong but there must be close similarities here with Castellon, built I would guess with local public funds rather than Aenas Central government responsibility.

Built in between 3 perfectly acceptable airports in Valencia, Reus and Barcelona El Prat, plus Girona not too far away.

Was there ever any question of Aena using it or taking it over?

Or was it built by local government wanting the same as their neighbours.

It would appear that allowing regions dome have power, allows them to spend unwisely and stupidly, Murcia is the second most indebted Region in Spain.

Sorry Roy your argument for longer runways and International flights would only have some impact IF Paramount was ever a reality and this as most of us who do not have rose tinted glasses, realize, seems unlikely for the foreseeable.

We are not talking down the region or being negative, the reason many of us bought was its charm and generally unspoilt coastline, served adequately by Alicante and MJV handling the regional excess as Steone correctly pointed out.

Quite why Aena do not want to promote MJV to handle a few more flights which it can do after the improvements made, remains a mystery, but possibly typically Spanish logic.

I don't see Paramount happening any time soon, but I do know, because of some of the original aitline intertest in the area, that there are parties interested in coming to the area with the larger aircraft by direct flights, who are currently not able to use local airports

Maybe there is a small reason why AENA have not been promoting MJV at the moment. I am certain that the likes of Ryanair, easyJet, Jet2 etc read the local news for Murcia. All these companies watch every penny they spend and as such did not want to take bookings for MJV and then halfway through the season have to move lock stock and barrel to Corvera. The costs of informing all passengers already booked that they will have to use a different airport and then the additional costs to the airline to transport the passengers from one to the other. Also the possible costs of legal challenges by passengers who only wanted to use MJV and do not want to use Corvera and then at a 'late' time try and find seats ex. Alicante for the same money. It would be a minefield. Maybe if Corvera is no longer an option then AENA will promote MJV and also the airlines will return as they are confident of a smooth season.

On a less serious side I can not see the problem with the length of the runway at MJV.     It just means that 'planes that need the extra length to land then the passengers will just have to get their feet wet when they disembark, simples!!!!Please, this is not serious.

Its clear that Alicante serves the largest tourist resort in Europe Benidorm which has 75000 residents and 50,000 plus hotel rooms to fill all year round. When people say no one wants flights to Murcia in winter . wrong.. many people in the large urbanisations in Murcia have to fly to and from Alicante in winter due to the lack of winter flights at MSJ .. does anyone know the final destination or departure points of passengers using Alicante. ?? no

Fact is, we prefer Mucia any day to travel to as a great relaxed airport with easy access from all areas and easy car hire pick up. I personally believe that Paramount Park would be a fantastic success and knock Disney Paris for six just on the weather alone. When the EU ( Spain) is struggling to recover the Government has to look at what brings tourist back in Millions to Spain . Grow some b*lls and get behind it )

The roads ( Motorways mostly) are just unbelievable in Murcia right down to Almiera you will find deserted motorways in every direction waiting for the rush..

So the infrastucture is ready, the Airport is ready ( even without Corveca , MSY could cope) The only thing missing is the finance to start it up.!!

I would be so peed off if I was the developer pushing the project he must have some determination, nothing but negative people bashing progress and the project at every turn.

If I could I would start an "E petition by the xpats of Spain"  " in Favour of Paramount Park" .   Dont give up Mr Stamper.. Keep going

Just a thought........... Has anyone thought of Ryanair taking over Corvera and making it their local hub? Think about the chaos this would cause. About 40% of flights into Alicante would move. MJV would have to close as the majority of their flights would also move. Alicante would go from a highly profitable airport with over 10 million passengers to maybe only 3 to 4 million passengers which would make it a loss making airport.  Interesting musings!

However I can not see this happening as the Spanish would not let a foreign airline especially Mr. O'Leary control an airport so near to one of its own profitable ones.

http://murciatoday.com/foreign-tourist-spending-in-murcia-mushrooms-in-october_23737-a.html#.VHiM6O90zcc

Really interesting articles come out when we talk about there being no demand for Murcia, flights etc, 42% increase is something

No one has ever stated there was no demand, just that demand was limited, after all the 42% increase is to 1.6% of total spend from 1.2%, good but not earth shattering but does at least suggest us foreigners are an important part of Murcia tourism.

Perhaps this story is of more real interest.

http://murciatoday.com/corvera-airport-up-in-the-air-again-as-the-plot-thickens_23738-a.html#.VHkAO0ekqrU

You are right, hugh_man that the article is very interesting. However what is not being discussed is why we need or want an airport at Corvera in the first place. Apart from the ego's of the politicians there is no necessity for a state of the art airport. Alicante airport is only 30 mins drive away and it is nowhere near capacity. It has had a lot of money spent on it and is doing a reasonably good job. At no more cost AENA have an existing airport, MJV, which can take their overflow. It is also a small airport with obviously lower running costs and for those that prefer not to have the bustle of a large ones it is available.

In the article they mention that 'smaller' investors might get their 'investment' back if a new deal is struck. I am wondering if that will include the main culprit who has got the region into the mess it is in and who is now in Brussels? Why oh why  has the person or people who have landed the taxpayers of Murcia in this massive debt not been bought to book for this obvious scam? 

It is also interesting how people like to use percentages as a measure of anything. As an example if I have 100 'units' and then have another 100 'units' I have increased my 'units' by 100%, sounds good? However if I have 1000 units and then have another 200 units, I only have an increase of 20%. So what would you prefer, a 100% increase or an increase in numbers?

As I said in previous postings the most economical way forward is for Corvera to remain a ghost airport and MJV remain open to take the Alicante overflow. The losers will be the gamblers, sorry investors, who have tried to rewrite the rules as they go along. Also the investors should be made to repay the €200 million they owe the regions taxpayers.

Rant over for the timebeing!!!!!!!

Steone?   Sorry you stated Alicante is only a 30 minute drive away? From where ? For those of us at the southern end of      

the Costa Blanca and most in the area we can call Costa Calida would prefer an airport a lot nearer than Alicante,  which is  a lot more than 30 minutes away from the 6 Polaris resorts, United Golf resort, Sierra Golf, Roda golf.....to name but a few  ' golf resorts ' that  I believe would benefit enormously if Corvera opened and passengers didn't have so far to travel when arriving in Spain, I know it's just not this market that they cater for but there is life and the need of a nearer airport than Alicante...surely the Spanish realise we are not all going to Benidorm.

You are quite correct Steone - percentages can be made to impress. When I was a kid we had an old shop-steward and he once said about a 10% pay-rise "10% of bugger all - is still bugger-all which ever way you look at it

I would love to see Corvera  it open but there are too many problems in the way and the most important issue, IF the present hurdles can be jumped is, where are the 5m-6m passengers required for the facility to survive going to come from?

Unless passengers use this airport in decent numbers it will just become another Cuidad Real - a €1bn disaster. Then we will end up with no St Javier and no Corvera.