Deal or no Deal

Thanks guys for your responses.

I still don't see any reasons why the UK should leave Europe.

Sure, there was a majority vote in 2016 to leave- but without any discussion amongst the electorate beforehand. In 1975 the first vote was to join the EU and went through by a majority with 67%, after along debate by parliament to hold that referendum. 

Kindly list some advantages I can give to my grandchildren why the UK is walking away from Europe.

Thanks

Petercy...I will make a deal with you ...if you can give me as many reasons as you can ..why we should stay in the EU. I will answer your questions.. so fire away.

Hi windtalker and thanks for yours.

Nobody yet has given me a reason to why we should leave.

When Brexiteers can tell us (remainers) good reasons for leaving that behind, then I will counter that with every reason why we should remain, and we can then move the discussion forward. Until then I can't see any sense of debate.

Why are you guys so reticent in convincing us?

Petercy the answers are obvious and staring you in the face. I don’t know you are asking. Briefly.

These are just some of the inequalities in terms of citizenship rights that exist between the UK and Spain, let alone the other member states. It's time to revamp and reboot our four-dimensional administrative paradigm shifts. "Spaniards in Britain have the option to apply for UK citizenship after five years of residence, and joint nationality is available, but the situation for Brits in Spain may be very different. Firstly, Spain only offers joint nationality to citizens of its former colonies, who can apply for dual or full citizenship after two years of residence, whilst everyone else has to prove 10 years of continuously living in the country. You really can't fail with knowledge-based policy resources. Additionally, many Europeans in Spain – particularly pensioners and those living in 'expat belts' – speak little or no Spanish, which would preclude them from applying. This is unfair as Spanish donkeys only speak donkey language. In practice, citizenship requirements are not very demanding – a multiple-choice quiz on aspects of legal, cultural, geographical and political life, and a test to prove Spanish language ability of level A2, equivalent to a good GCSE grade, are the only requisites besides not having a criminal record. This is not impossible to study for from scratch in two years, and many town councils offer free Spanish classes. Our upgraded model now offers homogenised strategic options. But not everyone wants to apply for British or Spanish citizenship respectively, and many fear that doing so could cause problems for them if they need to spend an extended period in their native country, such as for caring for a family member." So many questions remain, such as reviewing the options for dual citizenship where fair appropriate and applicable, greater monitoring and effective regulation correctly identifying place of main residence and tightening of controls to counter tax avoidance (to counter abusive practice from both sides of the channel), option to review the benefit differentials between member states i.e. inequalities that act as irregular "pull factors" to be adequately and fairly re-assessed. It's time to revamp and reboot our three-dimensional transitional contingencies. Presumably this is the OPPORTUNITY to review and develop a whole host of options leading to more effective control mechanisms, so as to attain greater flexibility than currently exists, to respond to the skill needs of the country and more importantly better forward plan and take back control for realistic sustainability of all aspects relating to inward movements of people, retraining of nationals, etc whilst countering abusive practices which lead to downward spirals of income and workers rights (given the realities that have arisen as a consequence of swift irregular patterns of migration), fair contribution of tax and receipt of benefits, health insurance where appropriate and fair, pension contributions and assessed rights for index-linking of pensions. The pundits have written us off since day one but our keeper’s made himself big to set up the counter attack and we’re not in the last-chance saloon just yet. What better time than now to reassess and counter abusive practice from whatever quarter it may arise, to review and better deal with differentials, to better plan for the future, but equally attain a fair system that recognises and balances citizen rights with realistic financial commitments/obligations/contributions to the member state where citizens reside? Every to facilitate oratory you hear about Democratic system is mainly just a smoulder display in a industrialist civilization.Parliamentary government means gratis individuals building free of charge decisions. Administration of folks by the persons for the persons. However in reality as a rule people are not free in a Industrialist system as they depend on capital to exist. Individuals can no longer maintain themselves from survival husbandry for instance. So in order to provide a living it is necessary to enslave themselves to Corporations or the state. They then depend on capital flows and profits and make most their decisions out of fear that they will be denied that capital support. Freedoms and Liberties are in a principle then subject to status and affordability. Something in Britain went badly wrong with that state of normality in June 2016 when the people voted in the referendum. The government of the day made assumptions that the people would vote in accordance with the accepted theory. i.e.: to continue to sustain themselves. The governments hubris was misplaced since a sizable portion of the population believed the EU membership was making them poorer. That the country was overrun with migrants claiming state welfare. Those services as a result were in a state of terminal desecration. The fact that these these beliefs were misplaced or even insanely wrong does not mean their choice or even the belief has to be set in stone for ever and a day. On the day that’s what they thought. On another day it MAY be different. Today after so much debate and conjecture I believe the people have moved from that belief. Or at best enough numbers to change the majority vote. It would be surprising if the numbers were still equal to the result given the realities Britain faces. So ask yourself is it wrong that peoples beliefs change? Is it wrong to give the people a second chance? Can the dire situation the country finds itself in be redeemed by a second vote? If you accept at least one of those questions then the second referendum is necessary. If not essential to try and unify the nation and save it from economic hardship for years to come. The idea of free movement of labour was conceived at a time when living standards within the EU were more homogeneous than they are today. At the time nobody could have predicted the amount of movement triggered by the lifting of controls on east European countries. The sending countries do not necessarily welcome the outflow, either: although anxious to protect the interests of their nationals abroad, they realise that a brain drain of highly qualified workers may not be in their best interests. In the proposal for continental partnerships by the Bruegel think-tank mentioned in the introduction to this report, the free movement of labour is not seen as a necessary part of a single market. The report also points out that, whereas the single market has lifted almost all restrictions on the movement of goods and capital, it is far from complete for services. The provision of services and mobility of labour, some economists note, tend to go together. And free movement is more essential for the euro zone than for the wider EU since it can be a partial substitute for the loss of currency flexibility. Brexit may mean that no country in the EU or the EEA will challenge the free movement of people in Europe in the near future. Besides, the numbers coming in from outside and moving around inside may drop for a while. But all politicians want to be able to respond to public opinion, so the principle may start to fray at the edges. It could even become yet another example of the variable geometry that Brussels purists hate so much.

I have yet to hear a valid resone from a Remoaner why we should stay in the EU...even if you do like curry / kebab / Nandos / Mc Donald's/ Kentucky fried chicken as they don't come from EU countries ... they don't count as a resone for staying in the EU...and they will still be trading quite nicely when the UK has left the so called EU....we are still waiting for the reasons you voted to stay in the EU ..you did give us one resone and that was for your grandkids...when you come back with  as many reasons as you can think of I will start with why you should have not voted to stay in the EU for the sake of your grandkids.

Great chat guys. 

Will get back to you tomorrow, ¡and changing yours minds!

17,410,742... The amount voted to leave.....

Hi Petercy how you going to answer 17,410,742 reasons as to why we voted leave?

Every one of those leave voters had a reason.

I note that yet again this site has been taken over by people who just want to discuss Politics. When I joined EOS it was to get information about life in Spain, and since then I have taken advice from people who posted and given advice or help to people who asked for it. I don't believe this site was for people to discuss the rights and wrongs of Brexit, and I note that some posters never offer or want any advice about Spain to others, all they want to discuss is Brexit.  There was a Brexit thread started by  Micky Finn which went around in circles for 12 months, by which time everyone was sick to the back teeth of the same arguments going round and round. No one knows exactly what will happen after Brexit, not even the people who are negotiating it.

Unfortunately Jarvi it is not your personal decision what is a suitable and an acceptable topic for EOS. That judgement is made by the forum professionals ‘’ the moderators’’.  If you particularly dislike a topic you have the same right as any other member to report it to the moderators stating your reasons, or alternately not read the thread at all. I do sympathise with your views as Brexit, Politics and Spanish bank topics have become an irritation to many members and possibly driving advertisers away. However they are all Spanish related even though they are abused at times by a handful of members. As they say ‘’at the end of the day’’ that is forum life and take it or leave it.  

@Jarvi

I completely agree with you, tried to stop this nonsense a bit with a few arguments but it is obvious that some people at this forum just want to push their opinion. It's getting close to the "Trump” paranoia and is not belonging in a forum were we want to help each other with the hassles caused by living in Spain.

In my humble opinion this sort of discussions should be removed by the admin before they get so big.

However, I will not join such a discussion again because this sort of discussions is not conducted with truth-based information but more on cheap sentiment and that usually does not give a constructive result….

So, I am out of this topic!

Jarvi..The Post's that come up on EOS cover many different subject's not just the Brexit…no one forces you to read any of them ...I for one do not understand the logic behind your complaint.

Ravahu and Jarvi how much annual membership fee are you both paying?

Thread topics can be a difficult decision for the forum owners. Busy Brexit and controversial bank topics attract a lot of forum page impressions which drives the forum site up the google rankings. Just because over 1 million page impressions per month are being made by the same few members is of no relevance to google.

But these topics are of little use to new members or advertisers selling and seeking  insurance products, property, car hire, and money transfer, which are the topics that advertisers get business from. These subjects don’t always attract a lot of page impressions so leave the forum owners with the difficult decision of quantity or quality depending on their advertising selling tactics and interest on gaining new membership.

Good banter, although still lacking in substance regarding my original question.

Majority vote in June 2016; I already replied to this.

Reasons to remain; Until I get reasons to leave, how can I comment?  I live a happy life, happy marriage, happy house and a happy business. Until anyone can tell me as to why I should walk away from this I really do need to have reasons.

I am still unconvinced as to why my circumstances should change.  Brexiteers, please convince me, say in just 10 "bullet points" or so, how you could change my mind.

Petercy...why did you vote remain for the sake of your grandkids ..you must have a valid reason for doing so what's the big secret...you never know I might even change my mind if your answer is a good one ...that I have never heard before.

petercy

Do you not care one iota for the waste of taxpayers, including your money by the bureaucrats in Brussels who move to Strasbourg once a month, just because they can. 

Thats just one good reason and try looking at the Common Agricultural Policy and Fisheries policies.

Okey dokey, here we go…..!!!

In light that no Brexiteer has yet to support their conviction, in belief of Brexit, herewith my account as to why we should remain.

Firstly, sorry to Javil but this thread is not a political statement at all, it’s about the economic future for the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe.

Secondly, angeleyes1, great post on 01 Jan, still working thu’ the philosophical statements and thanks for the detailed information in your post.

For 43 years Europe has had political stability, longer than ever in European history.

The UK has thrived economically because of free trade and free movement of labour.

International manufacturing, since we joined the EU, has been immense.

Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Airbus and so many others These companies invested their wealth in supporting British workers as a stepping stone into Europe at a time when UK industry was at an all time low. If we leave EU huge amounts of people will lose their jobs and the UK economy will tank Let alone the 400,000 UK small businesses’ dependent on European trade. What would be the effect the ”just in time” supplies chains for our food industry, automotive, pharmaceutical companies. Let alone UK driven projects such as Galilaeae, European Security, Euro Atom etc.

Our financial service industry is of global excellence, it accounts for 80% of the UK’s foreign revenue – this will disappear when we leave.

The UK’s NHS, healthcare, agriculture and service industries will be decimated by our proposed foreign policy towards EU citizens due to the rejection of European workers.

Loss of freedom of movement will isolate the UK in terms of transfers of skills for employment and tourism. Who really wants to have to apply for a 180 day visa (cost Euro 65) when it can be only used twice a year, an international driving licence, loss of the EUHI health card, loss of reciprocal UK insurance benefits in the EU, restricted bank access to UK banks, pensions etc.

And, what about the future the 3million or so people who have located to the UK, set up families, businesses, pay their taxes and make a huge contribution to the UK economy. And those from the UK who have moved to Europe and could lose their livelihoods, split families and end up back in the UK as a burden to the state?

Then there is the UK’s trade policy:

For two and a half years we have had a Brexit Minister, Foreign Secretary, International Trade Secretary and Prime Minister trolling the globe to get the best trade deals. To date, with 80 or so odd days to go before we fall off the cliff, absolutely nothing is on the table.

Maybe I’ve got this all wrong. For the fifth time on this thread, would a Brexiteer kindly convince me that I am wrong.In light that no Brexiteer has yet to support their conviction, in belief of Brexit, herewith my account as to why we should remain.

Then there is the UK’s trade policy:

Petercy...you are not a genuine poster...you are a (RINGER) ...from the Remoaning side.that's.. going round the various sites on the Net trying to air your political beliefs and shite stir ...you said you voted in for the sake of your grand children you have got tobe joking.

Hi windtalker.  I can assure you that I don't go posting on any site, this is the first time I have entered into any thread.

My passion for remaining, for the UK & EU is based upon 35 years of international trade experience both in cross-border European and global businesses. I have given a few facts about why we should remain (believe me there are many more to come), I have asked for counter facts from the leave camp.  But still, after 6 posts, no has yet responded with facts only rhetoric and misplaced sentiment.

Convince why I am wrong.

Petercy ...why would anyone want to force a opinion on you ..by trying to convince you that voting OUT is best..just like you are trying to force your opinions on them...we the British public only had 2 choice's on the Referendum voting paper ..put your X in the appropriate box IN or OUT no side had put forward a legitimate reason for staying in or leaving the EU it was left to the public to decide. ...the majority like  me voted OUT this was a Democratic vote ..please respect this ..I would have respected the vote if it went the other way .

TUT TUT Peterce you like everyone else in  the UK had a choice and presumably a brain you have said you weren't given reason one way or another on which way to vote!!!! dear, dear you have a brain for that you could have used it (like most of us did) to find out facts on whether to stay or remain not bellyache after the fact that another referendum is needed. I am sure that those of us who voted out did their research and voted in the best interests of the UK. I am not in favour of the UK being in the EU but that doesn't mean to say I don't like Europe quite to the contrary I love Europe and its people just not those unelected pricks who presume to know and blackmail the Uk into giving more than their fair share. I as a out person do not have to persuade you - the only thing that can do that is intelligent research.