What a good decision!!

Yes Pilgrim...............I'm with you..............been here nearly 6 years now and would not bother going back to UK if it wasn't for family. And family and friends are all I miss.

Goodstitch, you know I feel for you and wish you the best.

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Funny, just got an eyeonspain email about people who move back. The wife and I have been here 2 years and are hoping to stay long term. Unfortunately that depends a lot on work, company is, surprise surprise, restructuring, if she still has a job at the end it will probably involve relocation back to Germany. We'd love to stay but unfortunatly not in a postion to give up the job.

Two things about Europe, when you move you have to learn a new language and adjust to a new culture. Once you learn to accept it isn't like home adjustment becomes much easier. Personally I'd say the biggest frustration is the language barrier, if you can conquer that you can fit in very well.

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Interesting thread. To return to Pilgrim's original question, "I wonder if any other ex-pats. who live here permanently feel the same way, or has Spain become just another country?" To be perfectly honest (since there's a lot of that going on here!), to me it is pretty much just another country. People often ask me why Spain, and I struggle to come up with a better explanation than just because it's where I am, and I can't think of a better option right now. (I can elaborate and explain why we came here originally, but that's another story and no longer particularly relevant). 
There are many things I don't like about Spain, but on balance, there are more things I dislike about the UK, which is why I wouldn't really want to move back there. Overall I don't really dislike Spain, but neither am I in love with it. I would love to try somewhere else, but where in the EU (to avoid visa restrictions etc.) can I go where the weather is agreeable and the cost of living comparable, and where I won't have a language problem to conquer all over again? I agree with Rob about cracking the language - to a certain extent. But even if you attain a reasonable level of fluency in Spanish, I believe there are still fundamental cultural differences between northern Europeans and southerners, which can be even harder to overcome. Someone mentioned about the relative sanity of the UK compared to Spain (was it Goodstich?), and it's a very good point. I think I would like to try Germany, or Denmark for example; culturally we are much closer to them, for me at least the Germanic languages seem less challenging, but at the end of the day, the higher cost of living in those countries means I would find it very hard to attain the standard of living I currently have here, plus it rains an awful lot up there!

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Roberto, you mention Germany as a possible relocation country.Coincidentally, we spent a week in Munich in August. Mainly to get a little respite from the heat.

The first thing that struck us was the cleanliness of the city. Absolutely spotless!

The second thing was the lack of a language barrier! Virtually everybody speaks English as a second language.

As you say, the cultural attitudes were very similar.

We took a train ride to Salzburg in Austria. I think we enjoyed the visual experiences of the countryside on the journey, more than the city? It was picturebook perfect.

Daft point maybe but even repaired areas of road where work had been carried out were carefully shaped to precise square or rectangular shapes, to the exact height, not the haphazard lumps of asphalt dumped over piles of earth like we experience here, waiting for vehicles to flatten it level.

It was a culture shock, yes, I liked what I saw and enjoyed the friendliness of the people BUT, BUT, I came to Spain, firstly for health reasons and the added bonus (don´t laugh) that I loved the way that most days it was possible to sit at an outside cafeteria, with a parasol overhead, order a caf'é con leche or a cold beer maybe and watch the world walk by, in peace and tranquility and in our case, gaze at the beautiful Mar Menor.

Maybe the lumps in the road ´aint so bad after all ?? !!

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We've only been here a few months and so it's probably a little early to say we would never move back to the UK, but I think it highly unlikely. When we moved out here for many of the reasons already mentioned in other posts, we sold up completely and took the view that if we didn't settle here there are too many other places in the world to try than go back to a country that we felt increasingly disappointed with.

The language barrier here is a frustration but I am working really hard at my spanish and I am beginning to see progress. We chose a predominantly spanish town, and absolutely love it here and at the moment feel as if we have found our home.

A big plus side of the move here is that my health is significantly improved already. I used to joke with my friends that living in Sheffield was bad for my health, well it looks like it was closer to the truth than I knew. I used to have problems from asthma and arthritis which dominated my days, now I rarely give them a second thought.

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Roberto

sounds like you have hit the nail on the head.  I should think there are as many things to love and hate in Spain or the UK.  Just depends on what each individual finds more important to them. 

I've always loved Spain from a holidaymakers point of view. I love the climate, the people, the landscape, the wine (not wild about the food), and the sense of working to live, not the other way round as is often the case in the UK.  However, having had bitter experience of the way Spain is run, i'm not sure that living there would be any less stress free in the end?

We clearly can't have it all ways, and to rubbish either country is i feel small minded.  All a matter of  pro's and cons.

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Pilgrim: peace and tranquility???? This goes to show that we all have different perspectives, and probably a lot depends on your chosen location etc., but for me Spain is probably the noisiest, most chaotic place I've been after India. Spaniards in general love to make a lot of noise, and are mostly immune to other people's noise. 
Don't get me wrong, I'm a city boy and like to be in the thick of it - preferably living in an 8th floor penthouse though! When I lived in such a place in the centre of Palma, I used to love getting out of the city at weekends to go to a remote corner of the island (Mallorca) where you can find some of the most perfect, tranquil & deserted bays in the Med and truly relax. But, it would be impractical to actually live somewhere like that. And even living eight floors above the hub-bub, venturing out exposed one to the constant and needless horn blowing and yelling people. Put two Spaniards in a room together (especially at a community meeting!!) and you have a level of decibels that is sufficient to get a bar closed down if it is eminating from the hi-fi unit. Where I live now I am constantly subjected to mopeds with no silencers, the aforementioned needless horn blowing, noisy pool users, uncontrolled screaming children, uncontrolled barking dogs, shouting men in the cafe next door, weekend revellers enjoying their botellon in the street until 5 or 6 in the morning, bin lorries in the middle of the night....I could go on but you get the point. No, for me peace and tranquility are two very good reasons for thinking of leaving Spain!
By the way, love Munich, and everywhere else I've seen in Germany, and what's more the property is so cheap! Got me really thinking!

J&N: many people refer to the health benefits associated with the climate, and I don't dispute it. I know I certainly get depressed with the weather in the UK and feel much happier in a sunny, warm environment. It's great to hear that your ailments do not trouble you in your new home, too. But, and it's a big but, a large number of expats eventually end up heading "home" precisely for health reasons. I believe the Spanish health system is on a par with, if not better than, most other EU countries, but at the end of the day, if the sh1t hits the proverbial fan, there's no getting round the fact that dealing with a serious illness in a foreign language is a daunting and frankly scary prospect. If I found myself in a hospital in any northern European country, I know the medical staff there would be fluent in English, but here in Spain you have to accept that you are highly unlikely to find that to be the case. And even if language does not prove to be a barrier, it's a fact of life that most of us want to be close to family and friends when things go pear shaped. And sadly, it's also a fact of life that as we age, the likelehood of serious illness becomes an increasing possibility. 

Goodstich: what can I say? I agree 100% with every single word of your post (except the food maybe)  Wonders never cease!

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Following on from Pilgrim getting me wondering about Germany, I found this today:

The laws of Germany are entirely different to what you might be used to.  In most countries you are free to do as you wish provided it doesn't contravene the law.  Basically, German law operates the other way around.  Everything is illegal unless there is a law allowing it.  You will see guests arriving on say a camping site and looking at the notice on the board to see what they are allowed to do.  If it doesn't say that BBQ's are allowed then they are not permitted.

Each area has it's Ordnungsamt.  (In the local town hall)  This is a department which makes sure that everyone is keeping their garden tidy, dealing with their rubbish correctly and generally making sure that everything is spick and span.  Just look around you - the grass is cut, the litter is cleared, everything is painted and so on.

Do not allow your property to become unsightly or your neighbours will complain and you will have a visit from them.

 SOLD!!!!!!
There was a funny rumour doing the rounds years ago that Germany was buying the island of Mallorca (since about 50% of it's residents were already German). Ahh, if only! A beautiful Mediterranean island in the sun, run by Germany and with German property prices. Now that's my idea of paradise!

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Roberto,
I could subscribe to that way of life in a heartbeat!!
If only they had the climate??

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only troube is you must have blonde hair and blue eyes or else you know what happens to people who dont conform........????
The prople's Republic of China has similar rules.........

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Roberto, your last post brings up a very important point for me.

I am old enough to have lived through world war II, including the blitz of London, so I went to Germany in August, with very mixed feelings, mainly unprintable, when also borne in mind what happened to the poor souls in the death camps!

I suppose it must be remembered that to the people at the time, the megalamaniac Hitler seemed to present hope for the future, in a country that was in a disastrous state?

However, I felt there was a genuine feeling of regret and embarrassment for what took place over 60 years ago, together with various reminders and tributes in many places.

The most important thing I think, is to never forget that  the Holocaust happened and to make sure that it never happens again!

Sorry if I dampened your lighthearted reply Roberto. Did not mean to, honestly.

What hair I have left is a lovely shade of grey. PHEW!!!???

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Not quite sure what to make of Georgia's last comment so will say nothing on that, but Pilgrim, I think you are spot on with your observations. I am a little younger than you, but my family were directly affected by the Nazis. Some of them did not survive; I am only here today thanks to the bravery and determination of my grandparents in managing to get their sons to safety in time, so I too am very aware of the atrocities that took place. But whilst the Holocaust should never be forgotten, to maintain a prejudice because of what happened would seem almost hypocritical. And incidentally, Spain's record is not unblemished either.
I agree about the importance of remembering such tragedies, and Germany certainly does it's bit. I have visited Dachau, and although it is perhaps not quite as evocative as Auschwitz (which of course is in Poland), it is a very moving tribute to the souls who perished there and elsewhere. 
Despite the direct impact Nazi Germany had on my own family, I personally do not have any conflict of conscience when it comes to modern Germany. I even owned a VW once!

Someone post something silly, quick!

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something silly!!!

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georgia

that may of been a joke, but really could offend. Why do it?

Roberto

good post. England and Spain both have much to answer for.  Just different times in history.

Not so sure about about a German Mallorca though? While on holiday this summer in northern Italy, we found more rules and regs' than we expected. (swimming caps compulsory in pool, gate to beach locked at 9pm etc).  I actually missed Spains slightly 'don't give a toss' way, but we were only on holiday, so the things that would probably drive me mad living there, didn't have long enough to form.

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not sure how to do a quote thingy but

Following on from Pilgrim getting me wondering about Germany, I found this today:

The laws of Germany are entirely different to what you might be used to.  In most countries you are free to do as you wish provided it doesn't contravene the law.  Basically, German law operates the other way around.  Everything is illegal unless there is a law allowing it.  You will see guests arriving on say a camping site and looking at the notice on the board to see what they are allowed to do.  If it doesn't say that BBQ's BBQ's are allowed then they are not permitted.

Each area has Ordnungsamt Ordnungsamtg is spick and span.  Just look around you - the grass is cut, the litter is cleared, everything is painted and so on.

Do not allow your property to become unsightly or your neighbospickill complain and you will have a visit from them.

 SOLD!!!!!!

I spent 7 years in Germany (even got reasonably well at the language) and once you adjust to the idea that they have rules for everything you fit in quite well. It was quite amusing to walk the reactions of new comers when they find out you can’t wash the car on Sundays, or much else for that matter. Sometimes I think we adjusted too well, Spain was a real shock, couldn't have a group of people more opposite.

And at the risk of offending everyone (don't you just love the anonymous nature of the Internet) I believe the Germans should relegate the holocaust to the dust bin of history as the Japanese have done. The Japanese neither acknowledge or talk about the war crimes committed by soldiers during WWII, imangine a German chancellor visiting a cemetery and laying reefs that contains SS dead. Yet the Japanese Prime Minister has done this several times. The Russians (the victors imangineight the play book) have never acknowledge the crimes they committed (mass rape comes to mind) Fly the Nazi flag and you'll catch fast hell from you neighbours fly the Hammer and Sickle and your considered cool. The main reason the holocaust remains so fixed in our consciousness isn't that it was so unconceiveable (the Russians murdered some 25 times as many as the Germans were able to) but that the Germans were so dam efficient at it. Only the Germans could conceive assembly line mass murder (everyone else does it the old fashion way). Another reason is that it was the first real media war. For every hour dedicated to The Great War or the Vietnam War, or the Korean conflict you'll see 20 hours of WWII coverage.

And to end on a rather amusing note. On our honeymoon we were visiting my English (Mom was born in Mumbles Wales - not a car friendly place at all, we got soooo lost) family when they started to dissing the Germans not realising that the Wife was German, they apologized and she just laughed and said she understood, her Dad is verysoooo (and still is) German. She didn't realise how Canadian she was until we moved to Germany (oh thank heaven her parents still had thier German passports when she was born)! Although 10 years of dealing with them has made some Germanness rub off.

Anyways thanks for letting me rant, AND moving on to better thier the Wife got the offical word we are staying here.  Oh happy days I wasn't looking forward to moving again!

Now if I could ever learn the language

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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BTW am I an the only one who needs to set the font to medium from small?

I feel like I stick out.

YES I GOT AN AVATAR, I like sooo fit in here!

This message was last edited by Rob in Madrid on 9/12/2008.

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Rob, you Americans have to have everything bigger! (tomato tomayto, you're all American to us!!)

I know what you mean about culture shock when arriving in Spain from an EFFICIENT country. We lived in the US before Spain. The day we moved into our rental apartment in Boston, I asked the management company how I go about getting a phone line connected. Answer? It's already been organised, sir! I got home, plugged in the 'phone, picked up and made a call. When we first arrived in Spain.........well, there's no need to talk about Telefonica here and ruin the mood again.

Goodstich, believe it or not, at public pools here you have to wear a swimming cap. Probably an EU directive
Good news is, you can still park on a zebra or roundabout, while nipping to the ATM, stopping for a coffee, doing the weekly shop etc. Just as long as you put your hazard lights on, of course.

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Roberto

what about Southern France?. Do you think living there would be in between Spain and Germany?  (apart from geographically of course!)

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no unfortunately the Wife works for a German company Siemens and they are restructuring. She is mostly tied in with the German rather than the Spanish side of things, mostly due to language barrier.

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I've heard a fair few horror stories about buying property in France - mostly termite related. Admittedly there may not be any similar tales about Brits moving to Germany, simply because very few do. Search for info on living in Germany (in English) and the results are pretty much exclusively US based sites, mostly aimed at military personnel. I don't know about France - I tend to think it would be more like Spain than Germany, but if the appeal of Spain has completely gone, it could be a good alternative. Added advantage in that it's nearer to UK, so more driveable or trainable (pending reopening of the Chunnel), thereby avoiding the horrors of budget airline travel. Not sure about rules on bathing caps! Personal dislikes of France: motorway tolls every 5 miles, and awful food. (That last one's bound to get someone going!)

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