Spain not alone in land grabbing?

Wasn't sure where to post this, so started a new thread, as I thought it may be an interesting discussion topic?

Seems British people who bought property in Northern Cyprus may be about to start experiencing their own land grab pain.

I've not thought about this a great deal (just saw the article a few minutes ago) so don't shoot me down in flames - but I must say, the fact that N.Cyprus is not officially recognised by anyone other than Turkey may just have been enough to persuade me that it may not be the greatest place to invest my hard earned in the first place. Even so, I do feel sorry for those that may be in trouble now.

Roberto, are you mad.

In Spain corrupt policiticians, majors, central government as well as crooked builders openly flaunt human rights and eec directives, whilst getting extremely rich on the back of British, German, Dutch, Swiss to name a few hard earned savings.

Here is a fact for you - I know a Mayor in a small provincial Spanish village who asked for four season tickets for real madrid for 10 years to look at a planning document, approved it and guess what after 5 years not one house built yet 1000's of clients have paid 30% (between £28000 and £90000) into coffersof a developer who has conveniently gone bust. Crooked scum as you would no doubt say

Whereas in Northern Cyprus we are talking about land forcily removed by armed conflict, and a dispute on borders which after 30 years has still not been settled or ethnic cleansing

So grow up.

just cause you were lucky to escape crooked Spain 10,000's of thousands of others aren't

Blimey Alamred that was a harsh response to Roberto.

Whatever the reasons, if you've invested a lot of hard earned dosh into something in good faith and then find you may lose it all it must be heartbreaking. The northern Cyprus situation and whether EU decisions are enforcable there seems confusing to me. Aren't the people who sold these properties somehow culpable? I have no idea.

Regards, Poppyseed

poppyseed:

How is it confusing?

An armed invasion took place, thousands of property owners were forced off their land, which is then appropriated/stolen by the Turks who sell it to foreign buyers.

This has been known about for over 30 years!!

Up to recently to go to Northern Cyprus you had to go via Turkey because no one else recognises the place!

Poppyseed

the response from alamred was indeed harsh. Sadly though, from my experience and all i've heard and read on various forums, I think he is about right.

There are many people in Spain, who would prefer not to accept this, and that is infuriating for those treated so badly.

If everyone in Spain who could, would stand up and say 'enough is enough' this is not acceptable, lets do something about it, then perhaps things would have had to change by now?. I can't see that happening though while the corruption runs through just about every level in various forms, and people are prepared to turn a blind eye. Look where that has got Spain now. Can many really be happy with the result?

Hi Rob6578

I fully understand what happened in Cyprus. My confusion is whether decisions made outside of The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus are enforcable there. It considers itself independant but this is only  diplomatically recognised by Turkey,the UN & EU considers the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus over that of northern Cyprus . But how are decisons made elsewhere enforced? That isn't to say I disagree with the decision but there are now two sets of victims, the people who lost their land /property in the first place and those who bought it many years later in good faith.So those who sold it had no right to and should reimburse the new owners and hand it back to the original owners but I somehow can't see that happening.

Regards, Poppyseed

PS Goodstich, I posted this before I saw your post. I don't disagree re the state of Spain, we had a terrible time ourselves and are still trying to stand up against a dodgy President in the pocket of the developer, I just thought some of the personal remarks were harsh.

Poppyseed

It's ok, I know what you are saying.

Good luck with your situation.

Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974 when my parents lived in Famagusta, which was attacked & bombed. My dad was a civilian attached to the army they had a 3rd floor seaview apartment in Famagusta overlooking the Med sea immediately before it kicked off. In my dad's line of work he knew something was about to happen & he & my mum moved quickly the day before onto the Sovereign base area of 4 Mile Point, 4 miles inland.

If you look at  >>>  THE FAMAGUSTA GAZETTE 30TH APRIL, 2009 you can see their apartment block & actually their apartment, see my doctored photograph.

24 years later my husband & I visited Northern (Turkish) Cyprus, staying just outside Kyrenia. We drove to Famagusta & could only stay north of the dividing line. You couldn't cross it. The Old City of Famagusta is Turkish & we could enter that. It is surrounded by a dry moat, it's very impressive. 

We stayed a night at the Palm Beach hotel with barbed wire alongside it, just as the photograph shows. We took video of where my parents used to live zooming in on their front windows & massive terrace where we had lounged so much on holidays there. (It was a rented apartment, they hadn't bought it). That was the south viewed from the north. As we had a car we drove around the perimeter of Famagusta 'the ghost town' it was called. Everything had been left to rot, nothing had been touched.

My parents & my sister & I lived in Cyprus (I was aged 8-16) so it holds a very real place in my heart & it was terrible to have the situation with my parents there too.

Greek Cypriot families who lived in Cyprus in 1974 in the north had to go to the south, regardless of whether they had deeds to property in the north. When we stayed in Paphos a few years after holidaying in the north twice we were talking to families desperate for information even all those years later. They'd had to leave their homes & settle in the south.

I'm in a community group that is about Cyprus, the way its Greek Cypriots have been treated is extremely hard. My heart goes out to these people who lost their homes over this.

Anyone who bought homes (in good faith) should've been more careful under the circumstances, the problem of Cyprus has been well documented since 1974.  There has to be justice for the Cypriot people who were driven out of their homes & off their own land, surely ?

EDITED TO SAY: I started writing this after Rob's post but got distracted.

poppyseed;

You ask how decisions can be enforced. They can't be enforced in Northern Cyprus but the problem for UK buyers in Northern Cyprus is that the Greek Cypriots (because we are both in the EU) can take their cases to a British Court who can pass judgement & confiscate UK assetts.

Also, regarding buying in 'Good Faith', these buyers bought against all advice from the UK foreign office, in a 'Country' no one other than Turkey recognises, in a place where the prices were low because of the situation over the land. They took advantage & took a risk & it is now coming home to them that they have participated in a theft!

As morerosado says this situation has been very well documented since 1974 so they knew what they were doing.

Thanks, I didn't fully understand that UK assets could be siezed so my confusion on that point has now been unconfused (that'll teach me to only read headlines and not the full story!)

Meanwhile I'm off to Spain at 5am tomorrow for 48 hours to attend an EGM which will no doubt be a total farce and leave me battle weary, still we have to try and do the right thing despite the lousy odds.

Regards, Poppyseed.

Alamred:

Kindly re-read my original post (several times if you are so thick you cannot understand it) and then think very carefully before posting your apology.

I have been an active member of this forum for a long time. My views and opinions do not always accord with those of other members (including some who have already expressed their surprise at your unwarranted outburst here) and have occasionally crossed swords with others, but NEVER have I felt such open hostility and rudeness for no apparent reason.

I came across an article which I believed would be of general interest to other owners of overseas property, and may be an interesting topic of discussion. Evidently, from the responses from more grown up members than yourself, I was right. If you cannot contribute anything other than a vicious and offensive diatribe, then may I respectfully suggest that you stay off this forum altogether?

Good luck with that EGM, Poppyseed. Our meetings are usually farces too, minutes never reflect what went on. Our AGM's June 1st & unfortunately  we'll be able to attend but at least we won't be wondering what was said.

Have a safe trip.

Oh, & Rob, Alamred can't stand me either. (He does have rather a nasty way with his words. )

Well said Roberto.   I'm sure many people would agree with your comments. 

Please keep up your thought provoking posts.  There are many times I don't contribute but I do value them and enjoy following them very much.

My point Roberto is simple.

Spain - the system of corruption stems right from Madrid. The fact i repeat 10,000's of thousnads of people each year are saddled with an inherent corrupt and unjust eastablishment who allow crooked mayors, builders, to steal people's money make normal humans sick to the bone. The fact the EEC has twice issued vieled threats to Spain and still the established power in madrid continue to flaunt the EEC and say effectively we do  not care we will continue to steal and ruin peoples lifes shows the countries establishment for what is is - crooke, elected gangsters.

N Cyprus - the issue here is fundamently different. i repeat. Armed invasion caused 30 years of ethnic cleansing. Sompe properties in N Cyprus have already had repration costs paid to cypriots forced from there homes, but some land there is still contested. To put it into perspective it is like the Balkans except the cypriots and the turks have not restarted a civil war.

I owe Roberto nothing in apology, but you Roberto owe a huge apology to people like myselef who have had £50,000 stolen from a crooked / gangster like establishment, and as I said just cuase you were lucky enough to bypass the slimy crooks that prevade every local major and madrid does not mean you can even remotely relate N Cyprus to Spains active ilegal, crooked behaviour

Whilst I, & others, are extremely sorry (& concerned) many have been swindled by Spain's crooks , there is absolutely no cause for you to be so personal, Alamred. It wasn't plain sailing for us but thankfully, we didn't lose money as many, including you, did & we did get our property eventually all legally sorted but the road was rough till we did. Took us almost two years.

You are a very angry person & I understand you've been duped but kindly get a grip, it's hardly forum members faults.

Oh, don't dare start on me again as you have on occasions !

morerosado alamred Roberto

phew.......

insults like 'grow up'  or  ' are you so thick' just don't attract rational replies.  Having said that, when you have been cheated for years, and for some out of all their savings and more, then I don't think a very angry response to those who might seem to deny the ugly truths, or perhaps turn a blind eye to them, is suprising?   Those of us in a similar position to alamred feel furious when the attitude that led to the financial hardship or ruin, is sometimes slightly mirrored by those on the forum. It can come across as ignorant, selfish and superior, and is very hurtful.  That said, you can't expect understanding or sympathy from someone for your cause while at the same time throwing insults at them!

Very strong responses and insults from those who have been through hell through no fault of their own, should perhaps show just how angry some people are. While I don't condone it, I do understand it, but it reduces a thread to something not taken seriously by anyone in the end sadly.

Many of us are at boiling point, but we have to keep a lid on it when posting I feel, and accept that not everyone will see our point.

you can't expect understanding or sympathy from someone for your cause while at the same time throwing insults at them!

my sentiments entirely too.

Have a good day, goodstich.

Yes alarmred, you do owe Roberto an apology.

If, as Roberto has already suggested, you re-read his post, it is very clear that he is doing nothing more than posting a thread for further discussion.  He makes absolutely no judgement about any situation. 

Why you feel you have the right to attack him personally for no reason is a mystery, and why you think he has to apologise to you for the ills of the Spanish property system is bizarre behaviour in the extreme.  Please respect other people who have done no harm to you.

I am on my knees kissing his feet "oh sorry oh mighty one".

what is wrong with you people all i told him / her is stop being so damn clever, posting an article implying that a legitimate legal claim due to WAR / ETHNIC CLEANSING is the same as some crooked spanish mayour and government stealing people money.

there is nothing comparable - one is a crooked distatseful government and the other is an ARMED CONFLICT.

read goodstich reposte "Having said that, when you have been cheated for years, and for some out of all their savings and more, then I don't think a very angry response to those who might seem to deny the ugly truths, or perhaps turn a blind eye to them, is suprising?   Those of us in a similar position to alamred feel furious when the attitude that led to the financial hardship or ruin, is sometimes slightly mirrored by those on the forum. It can come across as ignorant, selfish and superior, and is very hurtful."

QED. 

It's a pity you don't understand the difference between raising a subject for discussion and making value based judgements.  As you still feel the need to make personal attacks, it is not worth making any further comments to you, however furious you are with anyone or anything.