Hello all

kev2006n

not Tish's buy, but posted from another forum.  As you say though, what a 'no win' situation. Some might say that in the long term the price would go up again, and it might? but with so much supply over demand, you have to wonder how long?

Tish

a good example indeed, yet you will probably be called a 'doom monger' for posting that!!.   That cost is market force as well, so assumes everything else would sail through without any of the other problems that we know happen far to often.

Yes realistic valuations are essential and Smiley (a mortgage advisor) has posted about this in the past. In fact he's written some informative posts within the rough justice thread.

Also necessary to check out the inheritance tax (and CGT) situation before you purchase, but a good lawyer can advise you on your own specific circumstance I would have thought. I've recently heard of a colleague living in Spain that has sadly been left in a very precarious financial state following the unexpected death of her husband.

Many have suggested that renting is a good route before you buy, in fact some have suggested that whilst all of these unknowns (monetary and legal) prevail that this is the only route that they would feel comfortable taking right now.

Agree wholeheartedly re off-plan being a buyer beware scenario given the problems to date and the obvious knock on effect of massive over supply right now. Plus certain questions have been asked as to the quality of build on the Costas, so I would be tempted to check this out thoroughly also.

Most important of all is availing yourself with a good lawyer who will represent your interests and not those of a developer. Gather around you well respected professionals.

Good luck with whatever you decide but best advice I would give is to keep an open mind in the interim and do your homework! Never be afraid to ask your (good) lawyer questions if you have any doubts, and view everyone's advice, if possible, based on knowledge of their background, motives and experience to date (whether professional or personal).

Yes, ads - sums it all up realistically and constructively.

Would add though that Smiley has posted "informative posts" all over the forum, and possibly mainly in the Spanish Mortgages main forum topic, and not just in the rough justice thread!!

Just to keep it real and a little more objective!!

Edited to say: And, sorry Tish, I can see why you referred to the post on the other forum, but anybody who bought off-plan in early 2008 obviously really hadn't done their homework.  At a time when there were already a glut of properties on the market/coming on the market, it really didn't take a rocket scientist to fathom that it wasn't a good idea to buy off-plan!  Property prices had already started to decline at that time due to the over-supply, even before the global crisis.

Sorry Pitby I meant to say that Smiley has made informative postings relevant to the valuation issue within the thread on Rough Justice , so I wasn't  just singling out that thread!

ads

it seems there has probably never been a better time to rent and a worse time to buy?

Pitby

I think Tish's example was to warn anyone of the dangers of off-plan and also market force shifts, along with lies from agents saying 'new builds will hold their price better'.  Just a 'buyer beware' message, but the importance can't be stressed to many times.

Hi

I've just had an email from my bank manager offering 2 bed properties at Almeria Beach.

Ground floor for 95,500 with garden

Top floor 115,500 with solarium

Fully furnished

Nice picture too..

I wont post it on here in case it contravienes forum rules, but if anyone want to see it PM me and I'll PM you back with details

Phil

Can't afford to go shopping if I need to clarify my posts!!  No not my purchase. Thanks goodstich.

Jan,

My thoughts too on anyone buying off-plan in 2008! But hey, the poor guy has enough problems without me shouting "Can't believe you bought off-plan in 2008. Haven't you seen in the media all the problems!!"

I think it is a situation many people will face.

 To the dismay of my partner who runs the rental section of our office, i totally disagree with the statemnet that it is better to rent than buy!!!

A few points.

Prices are the lowest they have been for years.

You can get a nice apartment in a village 15 mins from the beach for between 40,000€-60,000€, built, complete,green areas all done,views in place, all paperwork,licences etc in place....

The mortgage rate is good, you vcan get around 2.8% on a mortgage here at the moment.

If you steer clear of "off plan" which most people do now then there is no reason you should not have 100% confidence in the legality of purchase process.

Another example.

La Finca golf course was voted the second best course in the whole of Spain recently, as a rule in 2006-2007 a 2 bed 2 bath apartment would have cost you over 180,000€.

Considering the 5 star Spa and Hotel has just opend in July you would expect the prices to be reasonably stable.

You can buy the same  key ready apartments from the builder today with all licences available to view in place for 105,00€ with a guarantee of 1.25€ to the GBP.

This is not a deserted urb in the middle of nowhere this is a prime location!!!

The only reason i can think of anyone renting at the moment is if they are not sure if they want to settle here or unsure about the area in which they do so...

No off plan ,no risk, great prices,fully legal.............why pay someone else's mortgage???

 Have to agree with Gerogia, we bought a nice 3 bed quad, walking distance to shops, restaurants and beach late last year for less than 100,000 Euros. That was seriously good value and there are others around. If they are not that price make an offer! 

 Hi EmmiLou,

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, it can be mind blowing and scary.

But if you are considering Costa Blanca Georgia is a very good agent one of the trustworthy ones. He would

show you around.  We never did rent but we have had lots of holidays in Spain so we knew some of the areas.

Just do your homework as everyone says, you are lucky to have found this forum we found it a bit to late.

Georgia did not know that about La Finca we often go there for a drink very nice.

Pat

georgia

no doubt prices are better than 2006-2007, but some were saying then  'buy now prices are great', if they had taken that advice, as you are advising now, as you point out  they would bought well over the odds and now probably be in negative equity? Who knows if the same wont be the same in another two to three years?  Obviously it's good to buy at the bottom, and we must be closer to it than 2006-2007, but at least by renting you can jump in when you know the bottom is reached by watching prices as they upward turn.  Looking at the thread today, 'have prices reached the bottom?, opinion is it's best to wait a while, as prices may well drop and the recovery could still be some way away?

 Hi Goodstich,

For the last 18 years i have been working in the property industry watching the bottoms (no pun intended) and highs of both the UK and the Spanish market.

Nobody can tell the bottom untill it starts to rise and vica versa with the highs, to think all  the people who are in rented accomadation are experts and have crystal balls is a little naive.

You have to make an educated decison obviously based on facts.

We have seen a massive rise in investors looking for property recently, all looking for built out key ready properties or resales.

Along with the depths that some properties have reached i consider this a sign that we have reached (in my area) pretty much the bottom,prices are lower in places than in 2001-2002.

As i have said previously,if you buy key ready or resale and and follow the paper trail and stick to the rules there is absolutely no reason you can have a perfect completion.

If you can buy a property at some of the prices around at the moment then you will get a good deal.

I am not and probably never will be a property speculator but there are signs that the clever money is returning.

For the first time in a long while we are listing property that makes you wish you had the funds to make a killing.

People who were telling people that prices would rise in 2007 are probably back in the UK fixing leaking taps again or have run out out of people to tell who would beleive such drivel...

The biggest hang up people have with Spain is the legal irregularities,if you follow a few simple steps you can illiminate the risk completely.

"It seems there has probably never been a better time to rent and a worse time to buy? "

Personally I would be tempted to agree with you, (although it’s very interesting to read Georgia’s take on this), but at the end of the day it comes down to a personal decision based on a whole host of facts, circumstance (and figures), not to mention the comfort that presumably comes from owning your own special place in the sun.

It's whatever the purchaser feels ultimately comfortable with, for instance there's no point in buying if you are left with major vulnerabilities associated with your purchase at the end of the day. Likewise (being devil's advocate here) there will always be those that espouse the pros outweighing the cons.

Unfortunately the present credit crunch and its after effects require a 2nd home purchaser to take even more timeout to do their homework and hopefully gain a wide appreciation of a whole host of issues which might impact upon them. Oh for a crystal ball !

It's a very personal judgement and depends so much on all the right pieces being together at the right time to be able to make that decision. At the moment however I tend to wonder if several of those necessary pieces are unfortunately missing to provide the longer-term financial and legal security to accompany any purchase! Each to their own however, and I still remain open minded..... and ever hopeful that these insecurities might ultimately be addressed.

Trouble is I have yet to comprehend how Spain will clear up its mess from the impact of malpractice of many kinds over recent years, not to mention the ongoing recession, without imposing some painful financial remedies that may well hit second home owners in the foreseeable.

Some aspects to ponder.........I wonder if in the process of gaining occupancy for many of these uninhabited apartment blocks (or villas) left standing vacant, if renters might compromise those existing owners by a lowering of standards due to the fact that they are not ultimately responsible for their complex, and the developer/bank who owns them will not be looking to spend unnecessary monies on their upkeep. So your little shagri-la is compromised by outside influences. Also will the temptation be for local authorities to pass the financial burden onto home owners in the form of large tax increases in the interim, or for that matter that management fees will rise disproportionately to your original expectations? Can the increase in crime which tends to follow on from a major recession of this nature be adequately dealt with in your chosen area, especially where many owners are not living fulltime on the complex. Will the transport links and surrounding infra structure be secure, as many of the cheaper airlines have pulled routes in the recession and some local authorities have struggled to meet their funding requirements to maintain local infrastructure to a desirable level.What might be a convenient airline route now may not be available in certain areas in the future or at differing times of the year. Then there's the pressure on golf courses to be accountable for their independent water supply so what happens to those who have not made future allowance for this? Likewise is the water supply for a particular area at risk in the future once these properties/apartments become occupied?  And that's just a few of the things to consider. It’s really important to look not only to the here and now but to the future. Sorry if this sounds doom and gloomish as I would love to give another slant on things, but it's all part of a possible picture one has to face before making a decision on where to buy. These are certainly issues that existing owners are trying to address right now.

On the other hand if you are willing to take that risk on board and feel sufficiently financially secure in your purchase (with a reasonable financial cushion should it prove necessary) and you feel that all legal aspects have been covered, your complex is free from those potential problems or has a well established management structure/committee in place, etc etc then go for your little piece of heaven in the sun (but I personally would suggest not off-plan!)!

georgia said

''The biggest hang up people have with Spain is the legal irregularities,if you follow a few simple steps you can illiminate the risk completely.''

georgia

that is just not true as you well know from all the problems in the 'rough justice' thread alone, or are they all fools who didn't take a few simple steps?  Yes you eliminate many risks, but you still have all the known problems of the Spanish system to deal with. 

As for your statement  that people renting is in any way naive??????  ....... The naive are those who rush in and buy with prices still dropping, as you yourself mentioned in your previous post, when talking about current reduced prices.  Again as you say in your last post, 'nobody can tell the bottom until it starts to rise' , my point exactly, if you rent you are there on the spot to jump in at the right time.

Buying rather than renting sounds like sales talk, rather than sound advice i'm afraid.

ads

well said, another well balanced post indeed.

So many issues not sorted in Spain, and as you point out, potentially a whole load more that few probably consider? It is indeed though up to everyone to do what they feel is right for them, and with the info' available they are pretty well armed as long as they take in the info' and consider very carefully all thats been said by those who have experienced problems despite all the research and homework possible.

oooppss .... sorry guys, I thought I was in the "New? Introduce yourself here" topic - I must have clicked the "rough justice" link by mistake!!!

At the end of the day, whatever "value" you put on your investment (at whatever time you purchase) is, as ads says, down to personal circumstances - "worth" is very subjective.

We bought off-plan and our property is, obviously, valued at a lot less than what we paid for it right now - but it is certainly not worthless as we have been able to enjoy our time in it over the past few years and intend to continue to do so and have no intention of selling it at the moment, so it's hypothetical "value" is irrelevant.  As with billions of other property owners worldwide!

It's not always about a "2nd home" or "your own special place in the sun" - there are of thousands of foreigners who buy property in Spain to reside in, retire to, inhabit for the foreseeable future.  So whether it's the right time or not, "bottom-wise" (!!!), becomes immaterial as one isn't looking to the immediate future for growth in a short-term investment, but the long term utilisation of that investment.

If you are buying with a long-term plan, then whether the market has bottomed or not isn't a factor in your purchase really, in my view - although is an obvious bonus.  Just depends on what your own personal itinerary is.

Emmalou.  As you now have absolutely no intention whatsoever of buying in Spain as your very nice original question has been totally hijacked, I would say that that is a great shame.  There are some lovely places, some lovely houses and some lovely people in the areas you mentioned.  There are good builders (and bad ones if anyone who has read some of my earlier posts will realise) who will help you every step of the way.  There are good agents (and bad ones if etc.....) who really take pride in their work as the rely on word of mouth to keep their business going.  There are good solicitors as well, not that you'd believe that judging by the hijackers.  You need to go into it with your eyes wide open, take what is told you with a pinch of salt and follow the great advice that many (not all) contributors to this site give.  You really will be missing out on what could be a life changing experience.  IMHO, for the better. 

Still, you have probably, by now, logged onto expats Cyprus or expat Italy forums to see if you will get less negative responses there.

Oh, as an aside, I did say that I was out of the Justice thread but was PMd by a nice member re a remark by normansands.  I think I asked on about page 2 or 3 of that thread (I've lost the will to even search on it) if normansands main language was actually English as I was finding it rather difficult to follow what he was trying to say.  He has just confirmed this view as he thinks calling them "miserable sods" was swearing at them.  You obviously have a good understanding of English but it is obviously not your main language if you think that is swearing.  I think you should get a better whatever your language is to English dictionary.  

It simply means guys, men or whatever.  The most derogatory it can get is "Silly old sod.".  My Mum calls my Dad that all the time and native English speakers on here will realise that it is used as a term of endearment, not that I meant in that context to you.  There may be a very old, (ancient, in fact) association with sodomites but absolutely no-one in UK uses it in that context anymore and probably hasn't since the early 19th Century.  So, lighten up Norman, old bean, and don't accuse me of things I haven't done.  Believe me, after 30 years in the Army, I do know rather a lot colourful language that I could use if I were that way inclined.  (were....used in this sense as a subjunctive following the qualifier "if"....not used very much in the English language today and is rather archaic.....still used extensively in Spanish.....look it up in your ever so clever dictionary).

Pitby

 indeed, it wont matter to some, but to others the loss has been and could be a disaster depending on their circumstance. As long as we make as many new buyers aware of all the issues as possible, then I feel we have done what we can to help.

 georgia said

''The biggest hang up people have with Spain is the legal irregularities,if you follow a few simple steps you can illiminate the risk completely.''

georgia

that is just not true as you well know from all the problems in the 'rough justice' thread"

I am basing my posting on fact from personal experience over the years, if you follow the steps i suggest there is absolutely no problems whatsoever, i did mention that problems only generally occur with "off plan" purchases.

Don't buy off plan,eliminate the problems,as people have stated there are probably enough properties either key ready or resale available for anyone that wishes to move to Spain for the next 3 years....

The point i was making about rentals was that if you rent for 6 or 12 months it doesn't give you the oppurtunity the act quickly when you feel the market has started to climb.

Also if you require a mortgage then you will have no borrowing power as unless you walk into a job with a permanent contract you will not be able to get a mortgage here as your Uk documents will have expired.

So  getting back on track,in my opinion (which will always be taken by some people as sales talk) is to do your homework on the area,stick to your budget,see all paperwork, examine the qualities of the property,stand in it look out from it,make an offer and if you have done all of the above you will be quite happy.........