Hello all

geogia

well it's personal opinion, but I don't agree. Renting gives you an ideal oppotunity to get a 'feel' of a place, and all the mortgage detail can be sorted out for when you are ready.

You cover one side of the problems with good advice about homework and budget, but you can't account for the many problems with the system. The lack of regulation, corruption and often hopeless justice system is not just in the imagination of thousands of people cheated. Even after research and homework many are wronged as is so clear from the many threads and posts about it. The massive supply over demand and bank problems are yet to emerge in full, it looks like being a rocky road for some time yet. People must be aware of this.

 I think we are talking about two different things here.

I would imagine that 99.9% of all people that have problems are associated with off plan purchase.

I am not denying the fact that this can be problematic.

I am saying that if you buy a resale or key ready property will everything in place the re is no reason at all to have problems.....

I cannot see where you see the conflict??

georgia

yes indeed, I agree most problems are with new developments. Those looking at resale on various developments are still vulnerable though to the falling prices, community issues, quality issues and the dreadfully slow and often hopeless justice system. The courts are blocked up with cases against sharks, so any new cases regarding any aspect of buying could well take years to resolve.  Apart from this, until the banks come clean about the fact they have millions lent that they will probably have to write off, (and somehow get the money back?) and the government do something about the unfinished, unwanted propertis and the laws that fail so many when something goes wrong, then I don't feel I could advise anyone to buy with confidence. Perhaps in a year or two?

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect you to agree and I realise many buy without problems (with the exception of off-plan), but I just want everyone to be aware of potential problems. Once armed with enough info, ' then hopefully anyone buying wont fall foul of a system very different to what they take for granted in the UK.

Georgia is quite correct and if life style buyers follow the advice on this thread and of course many others then they will have no problem

Of course no one knows when the property cycle hits bottom until after it starts to increase again!! but most life style buyers are not after a quick return

They are after a great life style from a safe purchase with the prospect that in due course it will turn out a nice buy

Sometimes it is forgotten that 'homes are for living in' not just investment products!

The investment aspect is a byproduct of the basics......homes are for living in ...and this applies in UK also

Pitby I agree completely when you say that a purchase for lifestyle has different criteria in terms of the need to constantly review when the market has bottomed. To many I'm sure it would be perceived as a bonus if the timing was right and not necessarily a pre-requisite. There will always be those who miss out but are still ultimately happy with their lot, and good luck to them.

Now to the homework debate, which has moved on somewhat since I drafted this up (shucks!), so can you bear with me on this?

Where I think the emphasis should be, is on the aspect of how a purchaser goes about "doing their homework" that everyone talks about. As Pitby pointed out, this should not be from just a monetary or legal perspective for that matter, as there are many aspects to this, and we've touched upon a few within this thread.

What I'm struggling with, is that I'm fully conscious of not throwing too negative a light upon this to the likes of Emmilou who started this thread with her observation "but it's a minefield so I am hoping to research and pick up lots of info from your goodselves on here", whilst remaining realistic to the many hidden aspects/mistakes perhaps, that Goodstitch and the like have touched upon with their first hand experience, in their genuine attempt to spare others from a similar scenario (me included).

I was sincerely hoping that the professionals in the real estate sector would come back to these threads with first hand knowledge to appease such specific concerns (like Georgia touched upon in his reference to trying to remove certain legal insecurities). Not hype, but actual reassurances where they can realistically confirm to potential buyers that these aspects have been reviewed and addressed. Not just one aspect however but preferably the whole shooting match! Almost like a long check list with the boxes ticked, if you will. A diverse starter pack addressing important issues, provided by the sales agents, would be so effective, identifying for instance relevant taxes in their area, whether their golf course has an independent water supply, whether a good community management structure is in place, the realistic purchasing costs with taxes fully identified (no last minute hidden surprises when you find out that perhaps an extra 3-5% is incurred when a mortgage is taken out), quality issues, realistic outgoings on the property etc etc. (too many to list here). Tackling as many "homework issues" that a purchaser requires in order to make a sensible judgement. At the moment this source of information is so fragmented and difficult for the purchaser to find, even for the likes of those who have visited many times before, let alone those who are looking to an area in Spain that they know little about. In which case I agree with Goodstitch that renting is an ideal scenario until such time as you get an overall feel for the place, and have an opportunity to speak to other home owners in the area, to identify possible aspects that you have not considered or been made aware of.

As Emmilou suggested from the outset it's a minefield. But does it have to be so? Surely if good agents honestly identified developments with as many of the ticks in place as possible, it would go half way to addressing some of the buyer's insecurities. Also why not let buyers have that realistic checklist with maybe some of the boxes un-ticked! Be honest. At least they would know where they stand and those good developments would jump out at them (they would see where their monies were going perhaps), or even for those not requiring such high standards, with limited budgets, they would equally know where they stand. Plus, if success follows would it not act indirectly as an incentive for other real estate professionals/developers to replicate this good practice? Higher the standards so to speak with updated realistic information on hand, but not without forewarning buyers of where the obstacles remain until such time as change is forthcoming. No cover ups please.

Now to Goodstitch’s apparent concerns. It would be such a boost and a welcome positive approach if professionals within the real estate sector could demonstrate that they were proactively trying to eradicate malpractice where it exists, to make suggestions for improvements, make lawyers/developers more accountable by not directing buyers to those who have perpetrated in the past, (unless they are seen to be honouring their outstanding commitments and effecting reimbursement to those who have proved a valid case via the process of law).  To make it known that this form of injustice will not prevail in the long run. Why keep replicating a scenario that has caused so much insecurity? Where the complications arise is where that process of law is unpredictable or open to abuse itself. And that is where presumably these petitions come in.

It's a tall order I know. It would be so reassuring to know however that these aspects were not being swept under the carpet, and for those "aware" of the pitfalls to be allowed to vent their opinions without being made to feel guilty when so doing.

I'm sorry Emmilou if this has come across as hijacking this thread. It was certainly not my intention as I was hoping to assist with the research that you requested from the outset. I really hope that you find somewhere that you are happy and secure, with a good professional network around you and armed with all of the (honest) information at your disposal, instead of as now having to ferret around behind the scenes to obtain it all from such a wide variety of sources! Maybe I should have moved this to another thread, in which case apologies.

To Georgia, when you observe “key ready property with everything in place “ perhaps you have provided all of the above, or perhaps you have already identified those perpetrators (banks included, i.e. those who have refused to honour bank guarantees) and struck them off your list. The trouble from what I can gather is that we can’t name and shame within EOS, so we have to find other means to forewarn, hence I suspect the unfair title “doom and gloom merchants”!!!!! It would be so much easier if we had an effective means of making the perpetrators of these malpractices accountable, by giving them some incentive to stop their wrongdoings, or put another way (negative perhaps) to cut off their client base. Perhaps you are already doing this in which case it would be good to know, and if that is the case it would also be reassuring to know that you were encouraging other professionals to follow your lead.

Anyone else out there getting just a tad annoyed at all this?  Can you lot go back to the other thread so I'll know which one not to open? 

Emmilou, found any good expat forums for other countries I can join?

bobaol,  why don't you just make like an ostrich and bury your head in the sand !!!!!! ooooopps  sorry did not realise you actually are an ostrich !!!!  or are you ?

Sorry if I have said anything to offend ostriches. In the true spirit of being PC to ostriches I retract any comparison I made between innocent ostriches and bobaol . I am aware the comparison offended many ostriches however it was not my intention to offend the many ostriches using the EOS forum  . best regards MM

I was going to reply to bobaol thus "I'll take that as a no then! " but perhaps that was a tad too short.

Maybe in retrospect I did go on a bit however, so apologies on that score!!!!! Must have been influenced by Smiley's previous postings (only teasing honest!)

Good night all.........

ads

yes, a long post, but full of common sense. Because buyers in Spain don't have some of the protection we pretty much take for granted in the UK, it makes it all the more important that all boxes are ticked. It would certainly make life safer if a list included all the issues so many wrongly assume are covered by regulation or law. The laws may be there but so often not implemented such as community issues, quality issues, planning issues, justice issues, legal issues and no doubt several more. Until new buyers are armed with the knowledge that they may well find themseves on their own, (having to go straight to a reliable lawyer) where they assume there is a body to protect their interest, then they are very vunerable.

hmmm.....well some interesting points raised so thank you...

We are still interested in buying but have hit a bit of a brick wall regarding money..or rather the large amount of 'cash' needed to start off with for deposits etc Mortgage repayments will not be a problem but it's getting that mortgage to start with, so we continue to research and hope to find a lender who will offer a 100% mortgage, unlikely in the current climate??

I think somewhere down the thread ages ago someone asked what my requirements were.. well we want a holiday home rather than moving completely so renting isn't really an option and although coastal would be nice not essential in fact we are coming around to the idea of countryside and open spaces. So probably somewhere between the two

Emma

yes, highly unlikely I think to get anywhere near 100% mortgage. If you pay £120,000 now, the property could well be worth only £100,000 next year?. If you default and have to hand the keys back, the bank would be £20,000 down minimum and have another property to shift on top of the 1,000,000+ unsold already. With banks being owed countless millions by developers going bust left right and center, I think they will be very cautious, but of course need to shift property, so will be interesting to see how the mortgage market goes forward. With the huge supply of property available,  what will it take to get demand going enough to increase price as happens in the UK?  a catch 22?  People can't or wont buy until prices are cheap, but prices can't really drop because so much is lent on the property it would plunge in to negative equity, so who will accept the loss by selling cheap? If banks or individuals do start trying to cut losses with huge reductions then that will have a devasting effect on market prices, so unlikely perhaps?. Stalemate I think, so nothing much is moving.  Perhaps the government will step in as their lack of regulation is the main cause of the mess.

 Hi Emma,

You will not get a 100% mortgage anywhere at the moment and hopefully in the near or distant future as this was one of the issues that caused the crisis that we are in at the moment.

If you are looking for property at the moment you can be pretty confident that you are as near the bottom as possible in most areas. 

I am pretty confident that if anybody buys at the moment they will be pretty safe on the capital and of course it's not all about that but it does help.

I will put my reputation on the line now and say it is one of the best times to buy now than it has been for at least 4-5 years.

I am basing my opinions on 18 years as an estate agent, i would say goodstich is basing his opinions on what he has read,what he would like to happen and a little sour grapes.

You can take this with a pinch of salt and many will call it Sales speak  but after a very quiet August we have had so many viewers and buyers this week that we have had to stay open later at night to cope.......they can't all be wrong!!!

georgia

I think you could be a bit kinder than that and admit much of my post is fact.  I would agree prices have a limit to how much they can drop by what's owed on them. Everyone wants to avoid negative equity. (but in the current crisis it might not be possible to avoid loss) Why do you think I want prices to fall?, it wont help me. As for sour grapes?, why do you say that?  My post is only my opinion admitted, but I don't have anything to gain from talking the market down, though some do have something to gain from talking the market up . Just considering the facts about massive overbuild, lack of demand and bank debt. If you are seeing an improvement then good for you. The lower prices should indeed be helping.

Hi Emmilou

100% mortage is totally out of the question, I agree that we are at bottom of house prices now, and is an excellent time to buy. In fact I'm that confident that I'm considering to purchase a second property in Spain. The Doom Gloom Merchants won't deter me, I look at it this way that whilst they try to deter people, all the better the bargains to be had, those that believe in Spain.

Out of interest Georgia what nationality are those buyers that you refer to, are they predominantly Spanish or Russian as some have suggested? Are they cash rich and not requiring mortgages or are the banks lending again? Are the valuations realistic? Sorry for all these question but It would be interesting to know what is happening on the ground right now to retain a realistic picture.

 Hi Ads,

Before August our buyers were made up from British,Irish,Scandanavian,Dutch etc....

August was awful as usual,only one sale.

From Monday the influx has been incredible to the point it has caught us out, 3 sales in a week and 11 viewing clients.........heres the suprise......All Brits...75% cash purchases and all have them had been looking for sometime.......

All the buyers purchased key ready or resale apartments and 60% are buying to live for at least 6 months (here,not in total)

All under 75,000€

All in the village.

You can now see why i find it very hard to take when people come on saying nobody is buying and "Spain is doomed....doomed i tell you"

It is and always will be a prime location of choice for retirement and lifestyle............

By the way, on all sales paperwork is in place,qualities good,location fantastic...etc etc...smiley faces all around

 Well done Georgia,

Great no doom and gloom.  I love our place in Spain cannot wait to get back but we have friends that are looking to

buy in Spain but looking at taking the equity out of the house they have here to pay for it, which they could afford to do at those prices and bills are much cheaper than UK. Even with the electricity bills.

I think if it was me now and I had not already bought, this is the time to do it.

Well hope it continues Good Luck.

Pat  

I don't want to be doom and gloom  and I love Spain too (not sure what that's got to do with anything ) but I don't think we are anywhere near the bottom yet . I for one am  just watching and  waiting .Whats the rush that is part of the reason so many got into bother first time around .Act in haste repent at leisure .     MM

Thanks for the info Georgia.........what village (if you are allowed to say?)

Do you forewarn buyers to  the importance of making provision for IHT and CGT so that it won't give them a nasty surprise if/when they have to sell, or their nearest and dearest have to find the monies to meet the outstanding tax liabilities? I  think this knowledge is an absolute pre-requisite having seen the effects on a colleague who hadn't done so.

I was a bit confused. Do you mean that buyers are looking for 25% mortgages when you say 75% cash purchases or that 75% of them are buying with cash (even more reason for IHT provision!) ?

I don't say Spain is doomed but I do wish they would clear up their act for everyone's sake and I wish that more in the real estate sector were pro-actively supportive of those who have been abused by the system..... after all they were encouraged to invest by many so I find it sad that they now find themselves out on a limb! Sorry to hammer this home but you guys would get such street cred from all of those aware of this abuse if you would help to eradicate itI

I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding of those trying to stamp this out as I doubt if any want to do Spain harm, more the opposite they want to embrace a fair system (as has been expressed by Maria).

I would post a half sad smiley face here (that sounds it bit of a contradiction) but I don't know how to pick it up!!!!

ads, it may be that there are many real estate agents who believe they are also qualified to offer financial advice, but, at the end of the day, they are real estate agents!  That's why people employ financial advisors.

Would you buy a second home in the UK without looking into the tax situation? Do you know if the situation changes should you become resident in Spain and your "holiday" home becomes your main residence?  Would you ask your real estate agent for advice on which pension policy to invest in?

Please, people can't continually blame the real estate agent or the lawyer or the notary or the town hall or whoever else they can find to blame because they didn't seek professional advice from the relevant profession!!

And before anyone jumps up and down, this isn't aimed at anyone or any profession - it's just, I believe, a valid point.