Entidad fees

Is there anyone else out there that refuses to give their bank details to Resortalia.I have paid my fees regularly into the bank by cash for five years.I feel these are bullying tactics and I am wondering if I will get put in the stocks if I dont comply.

As I'm new to the resort this is my first time dealing with entidad fees. However, I'm not best pleased with dd being the only payment option. I have asked about an alternative but there was no response

I thought the very same and dont see why I should be forced into paying by direct debit it should be optional.

The reason they are giving is so that they can force debtors to pay. Whilst I understand the need for the Entity to recover the huge amount owed by debtors why do they need to resort to this? They're not likely to get the serial debtors to even respond let alone give them their bank account details.

I don't know what they can do if you refuse to hand over your bank details. They are saying that you MUST have a bank account, otherwise you would not have been able to have the gas, electricity and water connected when you bought the apartment.

Whilst I already pay my Entidad and Community fees by DD, I voted against this at the Entidad AGM for 2 reasons:
1) I feel it is an imposition as no one has a right to know your bank details unless you choose to give it to them
2) Possibly breaches human rights.

If you do decide to give your bank details to Resortalia my advice would be to send the info my secure means. Do not send your bank account details via an email as the internet is not secure.The Spanish Banking system is dodgy at the best of times. Gawd knows what would happen if someone managed to get your name and bank account info by hacking your emails.

PS - - - imho Resortalia do not have enough staff to handle administration for Roda.
I have heard many people are not getting replies. If you don't get one then keep emailing them - and copy your community President and the Entidad President and complain about the lack of response as I believe it is becoming a serious problem.

The email for the Entidad President is

presidenta
at (change to@)
live
dot (change to .)
com

I can't post a full link yet as i do not have enough posts

 

This message was last edited by mollusc on 16/05/2012.

This message was last edited by mollusc on 16/05/2012.

This message was last edited by mollusc on 16/05/2012.

Just emailed the president with some of my issues and she responded within 2 hours with a comprehensive answer to all my issues.

I advised the administrators last quarter that I did not deal in DD's and have always transfered the funds on time and proposed to continue to do so.  They responded with a warning about how if I was late I'd be subject to surcharges but other than that what can they do?  I have just transfered this quarters today so figure if I'm not in breach of payment then it doesn't matter.  I would however appreciate a bit longer than a weeks notice from invoice to payment date though so I can transfer funds if need be.

I can understand people's objections to enforced direct debits,  however, a democratic vote was taken at the Entidad AGM about this and probably many owners aren't aware of that fact.  Can I  respectfully point out that this is exactly the sort of thing that happens if owners don't use their votes or proxies at AGMs?  If owners wnat to be represented according to their wishes, they need to use their vote when they have the chance.

Oh dear,I dont remember that.I must have fallen asleep! 

Visited Resortalia offices this morning and reluctantly gave my bank details. The bulk of my hard earned cash under the bed now,the safest place to be in these uncertain times.

Jenny

Hiya

I think the whole issue of charging surcharges to those individuals (and we are amongst that group) who have for the last 5 years paid in full and on time and by monthly standing order from our account.  I am now told  this is not good enough and I did personally go to the AGM and challenged it and was told in no uncertain terms that this was not how it was going to be, that I was a debtor as I still owed 50 euros up to the end of June and that was why I was on the debtors list.  Now - as far as I coudl see I was actually ahead of the game in terms of what I owed. 

I have just transferred my quarter's fees but am so reticent about allowing a direct debit on my account. 

Why is it beyond reason to accept monthly payments of both sets of fees, which would surely assist with cash flow and encourage people to pay their fees.  it's logical to me - but there again, Spain is not logical!  (but we still love it!)

I understand absolutely 100% about the debtor situation - it's a pity that hard lines were not taken right at the beginning by the then President of Phase 1 and administrators - now it is everyone that is suffering. And, I totally agree - I absolutely hate the fact that someone else has a lien on my account and that it is enforced because it is written into the byelaws.  There is absolutely no give and take.  And to cap it all, us owners who do cough up are then penalised by a having to pay more to cover the shortfall caused by the non-payers! 

If owners really feel strongly about this then we shoudl band together and protest both to the Presidents of the various communities as well as the Administrators.

Actually Jenny - totally agree with you about the savings bank of "bed".

Jane - I am not sure "democratic" comes into it - how does one ensure that the person who has proxies is voting according to the wishes of the owner who has given a proxy? 

Just a few thoughts !

 

Sandra

 

 

Agreed Sandra.  We too used our vote at the AGM.  A monthly DD I could cope with but when it comes to quarterly or otherwise and we are not always given ample time to arrange funds to be transferred from UK then I just don't want them trying to get money if there is none there!  It is all very well that this is to aid collection from debtors but there is still the battle to obtain the debtors bank account details, (I'm pretty sure they will not now all come toddling along offering their details), and once the administrators do have bank details then there is no guarantee that the owners will have funds in place to cover the direct debits anyway.

I don't have a solution to the problem, wish I did! To me there are those who pay and those who don't and the method of paying won't make much difference.  I would however be delighted to be proved wrong!

 As I am reasonably new to this entidad stuff, I don't have alot to say on it but I think the DD system is not going to don anything for the defaulters situation. If they don't want to pay they can easily cancel the DD. This DD system will do nothing to aid the problem of non-payers, by all means give the option but the time wasted on chasing those who have paid could be used to better.

I'm listed as a debtor even though I didn't own the property at that time. I have asked about it but I got no response. I then asked how much I owed as I owe a bit more than one quarter. The only response I got was the account details but no mention of how much I need to pay. For these reasons I will not be giving them access to my bank account.

The only responses I have got came from the president and in relation to the DD issue I was told that the entidad fees were being treated as normal utilities which can only be paid by dd in Spain 

This message was last edited by mmbc on 16/05/2012.

I have been reluctant to give dd I have been paying by cheque but was told I would need to do it by dd in the future

I think Resortalia and the people who voted for this at the AGM have opened a can of worms and added to the already strained resources of Resortalia which will serve no use as regards getting the money out of people  who have no intention of paying their debts anyway. All it does is gets the backs up of the people who are actually paying which has been mentioned lower down.

What are the implications of not supplying our bank details anyway?? surcharges added to our normal bill maybe!! surcharges that will then not be paid because of how strong people feel about this, which in turn will lead to Resortalia then using valuable resources and possibly costing them/us money to chase people who are not actually debtors but the people who have been paying all along but just dont want to hand out bank details for a DD, its beyond belief, the idea is flawed from day one and its beyond me how this was passed at the meeting, unfortunately democratic votes are not always the answer (to few people voting for the larger number). This should be an optional exercise and the president should rethink this decision before it takes up to much of everyones time because its going no where and not helping in anyway to get the money from people who simply are never going to pay anyway.

 Just wanted to agree with mollusc and repeat that owners should ensure they copy their Community President with any queries sent to Resortalia at  roda@resortalia .com as well as the Entidad President on  presidenta@live.com if connected with Entidad Fees

 

In the case of P12 Community, that is all the apartments on Phase 2 please contact presidente@rodagolf-p12.com and remember to register and visit the website at www.rodagolf-p12.com

We on P12 are trying to ensure ALL owners questions are dealt with in a reasonable way and time and understand this has been something of an issue till now.

As an observation on fees, I personally am not in favour of surcharges to cover debtors, I believe as others have stated that complacency at the previous Administrator and by some Presidents has allowed the problem to get out of hand and in trying to rescue the situation Resortalia have recommended dds should be signed to collect fees, as we all did with our utility suppliers, is there a difference?

Whilst those that say this will not catch all debtors have a point it certainly will reduce the current problem and ensure time can be given to seriously chase those serial debtors who continue to flout the Law.

Again on P12 we are happy to discuss any problems that owners may have to ensure a sensible repayment plan is put in place but we will now ensure ALL legal processes possible are untilised against long term debtors who threaten all our services

 

Perhaps offering a small discount to those who pay by DD would encourage owners to sign up!

Hi Sandra - you can't, I guess, but isn't it better than not and presumably you would trust the nominated person to do their best? 

I don't like dds either, I always paid our fees by electronic transfer until the new ruling and am now having a few problems of my own with Resortalia  in that department, (have emailed the Entidad President who is trying to help get it sorted).  Nor am I happy about Resortalia spending time going after, and possibly slapping surcharges on, honest owners who are not the cause of the gaping hole in the resort's finances.    I just think that something needs to be done to try to turn round the financial mess that has grown (while the previous Administrator was assuring us that it was being given due attention), over the past few years.  If that means I have to pay by direct debit - so be it, I personally think it's worth a try, but that's just my opinion.  If it doesn't make a difference, there will no reason to argue for the system to be continued.

mmbc - I don't blame you.  Doesn't encourage you to hand over bank details if they can't tell you have much they're going to take.

Scottbabe- now there's an idea!
 

This message was last edited by janejohn on 17/05/2012.

My advice ( based on experience) to you all... do not rely upon the Spanish legal system to either recover debts or force people to start paying their community fees, it simply does not work or certainly not quickly enough.

Speak to all debtors personally or by email, give everyone of them the chance to make a payment plan based on immediate commencment of paying the monthly fees, followed by the threat/promise to take them to court quickly in their own country with the corrsponding consequences of County Court Judgements against their names and their English ( or European) properties.

There is a European act called the Order of Payment Act which now allows foreign debts to be taken through the owners home court system, there are several UK operations that will handle this procedure for you and believe me it works, a debt in Spain has no ongoing consequences to a UK resident...... a  CCJ in a UK court certainly has!!

If you want details of the operator we used PM me... we too had a massive debt problem that has been radically reformed in the last 2 years.

Don't be afraid to remove any services that are controlled by the Community either, some will huff and puff we have been threatened by Spanish solicitors but in the end nothing came of any of the threats except payment and compliance... don't be put off by calls of it's illegal to do this, that or the other, it is illegal to refuse to pay community fees, which came first ?... that's why none of the threats came to anything.

I hate freeloaders and there seem to be more of them in Spain than anywhere else.

Regards

Barry

 Scottbabe

I can assure you that is something we have discussed already on P12 for next year, I would also like to offer more legal alternatives other than six monthly invoices but bye laws set up by the developer and Town Hall under the HPA are notoriously difficult to change in a community, so I am advised.

NOT the Entidad ones however, apparently

Fighter 

Thanks for your input, yes all communities and Entidad are now in the process of using the European Act for owners outside Spain, again discussions took place last October but with all the changes and upheavals no progress has yet been made.

As our resort is roughly 50/50 owned we still have to rely on the Spanish legal system to chase debtors here and have been advised San Javier is one of the slowest in Spain.

The Entidad did approve cutting off TV via fibre optic to debtors apartments but this may result in more illegal dishes going up and more court proceedings to get them down, we also have to be guided by our Administrator as no President is willing to be liable IF a debtor did fight back for cutting off his water etc.

 

We hate freeloaders too, but there are a number of owners in genuine difficulties after the financial crisis which needs to be taken into account

Evening peeps

Like many on here I'm not happy about an enforced DD.
Some of the comments have raised some intersting points so I've done a bit of research and have come up with 2 thoughts which I'll throw into the pot for discussion:

1) As far as I can work out, the HPA says that statues (ie by-laws) need a unanimous vote for them to be changed.
Clause 17.1 says
Unanimity shall only be required for the validity of those resolutions involving the approval or amendment of the rules contained in the master deed or in the community statutes
I have asked both Resortalia and the Entidad President about this. The reply I was given was that whilst the community by-laws do require a unanimous vote to change them the Entidad ones do not. Why is there difference and is this not against the HPA? Or is there an interpretation of this that I am missing?

2) mmbc said they had been told that Entidad fees were being treated as normal utilities which can only be paid by DD.
In my opinion, I do not believe they are normal utilities, and I do not even know whether it is true that you have to pay your water/electricity by DD (leave gas out of the equation as it is not common in Spain to have a supply to the house - most people used bottled gas as we do at our home).
I know of many people in our rural Spanish community who don't even have banks accounts and pay weekly in cash at the bank. 
Telefonica do require that a bank account is required which is why a lot of Spanish homes don't have a landline and they rely on PAYG mobiles.
In the UK as I understand it, the only people who can demand that you pay by DD are government organisations and even then they usually offer alternatives. Is it the same in the rest of the EU?

As rd and mollusc pointed out - the ones who have no intention of paying won't hand over their bank account details and it is merely annoying to those of us who do pay on time - by whatever method we choose.

I don't know if there is anywhere to go from here as it is now in the Entidad by-laws whether we like it or not.

But any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Resortalia just phoned me this morning about my fees and trying to ascertain what I actually owe..

I found the woman I was dealing with to be very rude and she spoke to me as I had done something wrong. While this is besides the point she said she would try and deal with the developer and if not I would have to pay the arrears which are to be paid by Roda due to the phase 4 mix up.. She then wanted my details to take this quarters fees. I refused and I got the bank details but she warned that there would be consequences if my details weren't handed over by the next quarter.. Overall afterwards I don't think I feel safe giving my bank details to Resortalia.

I completely agree with you pommers they are not utilities. In Ireland you can pay your fees whenever and however you want as long as they are paid by the year end. Most people do it monthly via transfer then