Entidad fees

 mmbc

Resortalia are NOT the Administrator for Phase 4 community, though they are Administrator for the Entidad, which Phase are you on?

Before handing over any information I suggest you contact your Community President and get them involved.

Also your solicitor should have checked all fees owing before completing on purchase, speak to them.

As MMBC says as long as your fees are paid by the year end it shouldnt make a difference. I used to pay various amounts throughout the year as and when we got rentals but was always paid up by December, I am now told I must pay at the start of the year within 21 days of the invoice OR ELSE...and again mid year.

Sorry hugh_man I dont agrre that they are like other utilities as I was under the impression that they were put in place BY the community/owners to WORK FOR the community/owners and to help and advise the community/owners not to cause us more headaches than we already get owning a property abroad. Instead it seems more like a bullying dictatorship to me, that I am paying for.

Resortalia!! back off and stop bullying and harrassing the people who are actually paying and leave us to our own devices and stop complicating matters, just stick to chasing the people who dont give a shit.

My guess is there wont be many debtors reading this because they really dont care enough, the only people commenting on here are probably people who have paid up, this is just winding all the decent people up who you are getting money off anyway.

RD and MMBC

Please note that if you do not pay your fees withing the time period allowed on the invoice - which should be 30 days - then the 20% surcharge MAY be charged automatically. The By-laws of the Entidad and the communities allow for this. There is no need to wait until the AGM to agree to charge this as we had been prerviously told by Housing. You only have to wait until the AGM to agree to take action against debtors

On Phase 2 (Community P12) we have declared an amnesty (as has the Entidad) for 3 months to try and recoup some of the debt. On our second payment it is likely that we will charge automatically for non-payment with the 30 days.

Resortalia are much "hotter" on debt recovery than Housing were and are encouraging all communities to try to sort out the huge debts that the Entidad and the communities have.

Hi Bev,

Thanks for that and I realise what your are saying but the point I am trying to make and maybe mmbc is also is the fact that we are not debtors and shouldnt be classed as such until the year end, if at that point you havent payed then fair comment. The other point is, they may well be hotter on debt recovering but harrasing the people who are already paying isnt the way forward, by all means chase the debtors and force them into giving bank details but by doing this to the people who are already paying up is a pointless exercise.

 RD and others, just to add to Pommers comments.

Community and Entidad fees do need to be collected regularly to ensure cash flow, it is impossible to await year end as bills for services have to be paid mostly monthly.

I would also further argue that Community and Entidad fees are a utility, without them, we would have no gardens, no lifts, no lights in the community, we all purchased property knowing that fees would have to be paid.

I own a flat in the UK and pay my service charges via monthly standing order as do many others

Here we all had to provide bank details to electric and gas companies here in order to get power, if the bills are not paid we get cut off, but we do have a choice to not use much electricity for instance.

We have NO choice on fees as without them there is NO community left to discuss and if we no longer wish to pay we would need to sell our asset or if necessary have it taken off us.

It is not Resortalias decision to ask for bank details, they were instructed by the Entidad board after an AGM item altering the byelaws, if not happy we can all complain to the Entidad Board but it was agreed at an AGM when these things get discussed.

Yes Resortalia are now actively chasing serial debtors, but put yourself in a position where a few owners wish to make alternative arrangements which do not always work due to problems with bank payments or lack of funds etc., it creates extra workload for all concerned. I know the P12 auditor has put in a huge amount of hours working with Resortalia trying to sift out the serial debts.

Unfortunately acting in this way may upset a few owners but it seems many are happy that at last serious efforts are being taken to reduce the debt mountain.

As a final note, a quote sent to me this morning from another Roda Community President albeit a smaller community

THIS IS TRUE.

This quote was made at a recent AGM by the only other owner attending (other than me and my auditor VP). This will make you want to continue your unpaid and thankless job with full vigour and enthusiasm. I know it has inspired me.

“I don’t want the job, I came to Spain to retire and relax – and I’m not voting for you either”.

Can someone please explain to me again why monthly standing order payments are unaccceptable to the Community and Administrators.

As a willing payer of fees (and have done so in full for our period of ownership) I was told I was a debtor because I owed 50 euro to the end of June 2012 because I had not paid my fees in full to that date at the AGM.

No wonder Spain and our community is in the pickle it is when it can't think sensibly and creatively about how to attract and encourage owners to pay their fees in bite size pieces.  Hugh_man  - as you said, you pay your service fees for your flat in the UK by standing order - is that on a monthly basis?  I also run a small management company for a block of flats and we permit monthly payment of management fees - it means we have cash flow on a monthly basis and that is how our bills come in. 

Come on communities - let's find some flexibility out there and work then together.  And of course it goes without saying that I totally support any action against the wotsits that haven't paid should be pursued of course and penalties levied on them. and then some!

Just a few more of my thoughts.

Sandra

 Sandra

Pommers may know better but I assume it is all down to the way the byelaws were set up originally and the Entidad changed theirs to quarterly and now have changed to providing dd details

Presumably Spanish banks may charge more to the community for taking monthly rather than quarterly or half yearly payments, remember the Entidad account is dealing with 1200 payments each time

Communities would need to change their byelaws which need unanimity but may well be a sensible proposal, you really need to discuss with Presidents of your community and Entidad either directly or through Resortalia

I reiterate on P12, if we are allowed, we will be looking at and discussing all sensible options over the next few months, including monthly payments at a small extra cost or discounts for up front payments, the action taken by the Entidad by instructing Resortalia to demand dds may be a kneejerk reaction to the previous complacency and inefficiencies that you yourself mentioned earlier as well as the realisation that the Town Hall does not seem to have the power or knowledge to chase debtors as was thought.

Once all minutes have been signed and legal action  commenced or agencies appointed against the real problem debts then perhaps this will all calm down a little especially as at times there are far more important issues to consider.

I assume that owners who continue to pay via transfer or cash but do not provide dd details will not have any problem as their accounts will be up to date and there will be nothing to follow up on.

The proposal was in the Entidad agenda and all owners did have an opportunity to protest previously as you did.

Some of the community ougoings aren't monthly - e.g. insurance is payable quarterly in advance, water every 2 months, fire system maintenance annually etc. And of course repairs can be needed at any time so are hard to predict when the money may be spent.

So to pay some of these bills if fees were only paid monthly could technically put the community bank acoount into debit.

OK, all communities have a reserve fund but this is slowly being whittled down due to the debtors. The Entidad is technically insolvent and I suspect many communities will be by the end of this year if some of the debtors don't pay up. We just don't have the cash to keep paying the bills.

If all owners actually paid up then monthly payment would not be a major issue as the cashflow would balance itself out.
But at the moment without the fees being paid in advance we will not be able to continue to function.
OK this might disadvantage the "good owners" but at least it means you still have street lighting, the rubbish being collected, your pool full of water and usable, and some nicely cut lawns and some gardens to sit in.

Unfortunately the bye-laws clearly state that your fees are due in advance (Entidad 4 times a year, Community twice per year). If you want to change the bye-laws to allow monthly payments then you need a unanimous vote at the Community AGM (and a majority one at the Entidad AGM).

As HughMan has said, we are looking at ways on P12 to allow this but we might have to be a bit innovative to do it.

Have a look at your car or home insurance. If you pay the total amount up front it is the amount your are quoted for your renewal. To pay in monthly installments there is usually an administrative charge. Direct Line charge 15% - and thats for monthly stuff. Don't pay up at all and you don't get insured.

Hope this makes sense

This message was last edited by pommers on 19/05/2012.

This message was last edited by pommers on 19/05/2012.

Thanks Hugh_man andPommers

I know there are huge issues facing all of us and I will be one of the first in the queue to say thank you very much to those elected officials who have taken on the challenges of taking the community forward together with the new administrators.  Having been in the same position with another community I can honestly say that I am truly empathetic with what these presidents and vice presidents are now facing - and it's not easy.

Best wishesa

Sandra

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** EDITED - Previously banned user **

mmbc and hugh_man

The email we have just received says that if you already pay by direct debit the fees will be taken on 2nd July.
If you don't already pay by direct debit you now need to let  Resortalia have you bank details - as agreed at the last Entidad AGM.

The Entidad Byelaws (unlike most of the Communit Byelaws) don't actually specify how long you have to pay. All it says is:
Article 14 - 1)To pay punctually the invoiced fees . . .

I think most of the Community Byelaws do specify a number of days - 30 days in most cases I believe.

However, can I suggest that you have a check back through your emails. I certainly received an email, sent to all owners, on 10th May advising us of the scheduled dates for payments on Entidad fees which included notifaction of 2nd July payment

I do not have the faith in Resortalia's service to trust them with a Direct Debit.  I recently made a journey to Roda just to sort the finances out - I visited the office of Resortalia and told them I wanted to pay all I owe.  'And how much is that', the lady said - 'You tell me!' I replied.  'Well you see, some people have paid and it has'nt been recorded or recorded incorrectly' - ?? - eventually we worked out that I had missed one payment, but I was sure I had paid it.  On return to UK I found a copy of the Bank Transfer so I scanned it and forwarded it to Resortalia.  They accepted it as proof of payment.  One month later I am being hounded for the same payment - or they will add 20% - and have also recieved demands for the Entidad for the rest of 2012 - which I have paid!!  Trust them with a Direct Debit !!! - remind me again why Spain is in such a financial mess!!!!

If you are in Phase 2 apartments then please contact me privately as I am the auditor and working closely with Resortalia to try and resolve these sort of problems.

I've had several examples though of people thinking they've paid. But what they pointed to on their bank statement was their IBI payment to the Town Hall - not their Community fees.
Also bear in mind that the girl you probably spoke to might have been the Customer Services person - who has nothing to do with the finances.

The Direct Debit system actually works much better than the manual transfer one.
The DDs feed automatically into the ledger whereas manually payments are just that and have to be input manually.
I agree it isn't good that there are mis-postings and I've told Resortalia about this but humans do make errors.

toshiedog

Do you think the UK banking system is any more reliable, given what has just gone on. we seem to live in an age where more and more errors creep in and are almost accepted as the norm.

As Pommers has said we on P12 have been working very closely with Resortalia to try and ensure errors are kept to a minimum, but many still occur, not least because of some owners confusion over Entidad, Community Fees and IBI payments as well as Banks not always putting a reference on an owners transfer making it difficult to trace.

At least with a DD the only problem should arise with lack of funds in the account, otherwise Resortalia "should" be able to advise owners if any problems of payment do occur and you are able to check your own statements if you feel Resortalia are in error. Enough paperwork advising of all future due payments is now sent out.

It does appear though that our previous Administrator was not always able to take DD payments correctly.

My advice is always to cc in your Community/Entity President if you have a problem with Resortalia, they should be able to help you sort it. The payments need to be made to ensure services are maintained, so always best to ensure no excuse for problems.